#179 Brainstorming Finishes with Lucas Kanard

In this episode, Jake brainstorms ideas with Lucas Kanard on various finishing positions from match footage and study. Hope you enjoy!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Hello. What's up, Lucas? It's Jake from the Less Impress More Involved YouTube channel.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Hey man, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:08

I'm doing great. I got Josh here with me as well, and we're happy to talk to you. Um yeah, I'm I'm very excited for this conversation because I normally don't get to talk to athletes, especially ones that I like, you know, break down on my YouTube videos. It's mostly me just like sitting on my high horse commenting on what people are doing. So um one thing I wanted to start off asking you was in my recent video, I kind of compared and contrasted your guard retention style with Levi's guard retention style in the sense that Levi tends to keep his arms like inside of his legs and um have like a very structured posture in that way. And you tend to have your arms more outside your legs. Um and yeah, this is uh something I was curious to get your thoughts on.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Yeah, man. Um, sorry, you just mentioned the athletes you break down. It's kind of a trip out to be one of the athletes that you break down. It's kind of a running thing. I don't know if you still do it, but uh the uh channel sort of started, I think, as like you would watch a whole event and then make timestamps of when specific moves happened, right? And then sort of draw statistics on what people were doing at that time. Is that like roughly how you do that?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

I think that's probably when I started to get popular, was when I started to do more of the statistic type stuff, and especially in the ADCC realm, trying to break down like divisions and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

I think the first one I saw was the Marcelo Garcia one, and you had like a different microphone and stuff. Yeah, that was early. But I don't know if it but that could have been like uh that could have been the case that I just went back and watched a bunch of them. But anyway, the where I was gone with that is it's kind of a running thing among um people at the gym that it's a trip out to be one of the people that are on the on this channel. Like uh my mate Harrison is on there for the Street X comp and then uh Mo Moe Jits from the gym was on there doing a choi bar. I don't know if you probably wouldn't remember that one, but it was at an event ages ago. Um so every time that happens, everyone's like pretty gassed about it. So to be one of those athletes is a bit of a trip out. Even to be even to sort of be mentioned uh next to Levi is kind of kind of really uh surreal for me, to be honest. Sorry, uh about guard retention. Um I sorry man. Um I kind of learned it uh from Levi before there was like a before there was a um formal like instructional. Like Iri has the instructional with Loki from from Melbourne, and then it was kind of like expressed very clearly um what what sort of the goals of guide retention uh were in that. And so I never really learned it like that. I kind of learned it just from being battered in the gym with Levi every day in 2019. Uh and and really it boiled down to keep your knees to your chest, your feet facing them, and your head between your knees. And it was like uh that involves like a lot of uh Grambys. And then most of the time it was about not having uh having anything in the space of your top knee. So if you're playing on one hip, say someone's in like split spot camping split squat camping, then don't let them get inside the top knee space because that's where kneecuts and things like that will come from. And the videos I watched uh at the time as like reference material for that were mostly the Meow brothers. Like you would see people knee cut them and then they would bust a massive high pump, right? And they they could do it. Uh and you would see it in that that BJJ hacks video, you know, the the odd one, and it's like, what do you where they said like what do you guys do for fun? And they're like, nothing. It's just training. But what I'm saying about it is there wasn't that much material on how to study that kind of thing, like Michael Langney or just matches in general. Most of what I got, I got from Levi, and then trial and error, which was painful, like really painful, because I think at the time the that that school of training, like the Unity style training, was characterized by uh leg drags, single unders, mostly single unders and over-unders, right? So pressure passing from one top and then burning ballers from one bottom. And that caused some serious back pain, bro. Especially when you're learning that game. And a lot of turtling. I know I don't turtle much, but a lot of turtling because uh just because I didn't know how to do it, right? Um the differences I think between me and Levi is he's really, really strong at making a connection and then and then punishing people using inside bowlers or or he sort of threatens going outside and then goes inside. I'll tell you one thing that I just haven't really seen before or since is how he used that waiter entry to enter the saddle. He did it to Cade and he did it to uh Roberto Menes.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Roberto, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Yeah. It's like uh you don't see it, man. You just don't see that. And I think have you have you guys tried it in training?

SPEAKER_00 5:59

I after that CJI event, I was trying it and I was not seeing it. Like it was, I was just yeah, it wasn't clicking for me.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

I think um right, yeah. I have, and I think what makes it most digestible to teach the people uh to have them hit it is it's two things, right? Because you really need to understand how to do that weight abolo, which I'm not great at it. I'm not great at it just because uh like when I put my foot inside, I think the whole thing is when your foot goes inside, your knee has to be turned out, and then that's gonna create the off bounds. I've just never really been good at that movement, like just making my legs do this. And I know he's hyper flexible. Oh no, like like he's flexible that way. You see, like Mickey Yav is flexible that way too, and I just never have been, so I just tend not to do it. It's like your foot goes inside behind the knee and you point your knee at their hip, or even even wider, and then that is gonna uh sort of turn their knee to the mat. It's like you you do like a V-sit and you sort of rock to the mat. Anyway, I'm not good at that movement, but the way that I understood of how to get to to what he was doing is essentially have you ever done uh like the guard to the saddle?

unknown 7:12

Right?

SPEAKER_02 7:13

It's like A guard off balance, and then right, and it's kind of like you're doing um the same thing you do from single X or Rumiyashi, like what uh like what uh Gordon did to Cyborg, very similar to that movement, uh, except you do it from Aguard. Well, I think Levi Levi's one sort of supposes that you do the inside bowler, right, from a waiter, and then when they back step, when they back step, you're in effectively the same position that you would be if you'd done the off balance from Argard.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Yeah, like this, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

So when right he doesn't decay it as well, um, but he doesn't he doesn't enter the saddle totally on case.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Gotcha. But yeah, I think that makes sense. So so you catch the back step, and now you're in that Arguard type position.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Right, so no, so when access, right? I think it's it's like uh it's like Roberto Jimenez is gonna try and put his left uh on that on the swords lever. You know how I think he's doing his anti-yeah, here. See this how he's like trying to turn towards him?

SPEAKER_04 8:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

And now if you just were like, and this would kind of probably be a little bit awkward, if you were to compare this to an Argard entry, then sorry, if you if you just play it out. See how now this would be like that hip pin position that you'd get to if you were in um well you call it I got it off you actually, the the A2 position.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah, I got it off Gordon, so we all just steal stuff from Gordon at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

It's a shame that he's good, isn't it? So the uh the um this this I would I would say is like that hip pin um position, and then from here he he he can back step into it.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Yeah. Or backstep, whatever, you know, collect the collect the thing.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

I gotcha. Yeah, it's it's so smooth.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

So smooth. Yeah, it's incredible, but you just don't get that reaction that much. Like crazy, crazy you can pull it off that quick. Um you don't get the reaction uh this yeah, so see like he he threatens going outside to go inside, and then yeah, he threatens going outside to go inside.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Right. And this this to me looks like movement there. Yeah. That's the like, yeah, I see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

I just think it as like a teaching tool, if people were to try and do this movement themselves, then doing it once from from I always thought of it as headquarters, but R guide, right? Like reverse guard, like where the foot's inside and reinforced by your other foot, it's identical to this position. It's just that Levi's got a spirit rather than uh rather than an overwrap. But you come to this same hip spin position if they if they can see it all the way to their elbow like that.

unknown 10:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

So I think this is just adds a layer uh to the to the guard players, to the guard players at some who who um focused on and his that gets in the present other leg. Does that sort of track for you as well?

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah, it does. It makes a lot of sense. I I didn't break it down as granular as you did, but after breaking it down, it based on what you said with the like sho the inside bolo and the R guard, like it it is definitely much more clear to me now after hearing you speak about it.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Um he does it again in the cade match. I don't know if you're gonna be able to pull it up as easily because it's not a finished submission, right? And it's just buried in there. But uh if people are watching, just watch the cade match again.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Yeah, I don't have it.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

I think it's because it's because it wasn't like uh like a clean entry.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Is this it? No, no, because um, yeah. You more like spinch the leg there. Yeah, I don't have it.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

So frustrating. So even just what happened there, right? Like in in rule sets that favor submissions, that toe hold it wouldn't be like a closed loop submission, right? Like there's nothing to actually threaten Levi getting broken there. He could just roll with it. And then this entry, I would say, is quite a bit more threatening. Like you actually have to address it. Like maybe Levi, I mean it's not gonna happen to Levi, but say a different regular human is gonna get put in a smash saddle, right? Right. Like obviously that's not what happened, but like someone like Levi or Pavel or people like this who are good at entering an inside position and not having their hip pin. But just say like this position. So uh this is more of a rule question. I was uh at the at the second CJI, and uh I'm sitting next to Fabricio Andre, and at one point Wagner had a match with someone, I can't remember who, but it was like someone got taken down and mounted, but they had a Komora group. Oh and then Fabricio runs over and he's like, Who's winning? Like in this rule set, who's winning? And it's a serious, seriously good question. Yeah, I know. It kills me about submission-based rule sets in general because it favors a person doing what K did there. Like, have you seen the Real Tollo brothers? They'll wrap like an esteamer and then make a face. Yeah, and it's like it could be I it could be spelling, I don't know, but mostly what I'm seeing is their face, and then uh like it's but in my mind the the more threatening thing that happened there was obviously what we right, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

It might like the one championship has their like catch-like rule, and obviously like Cade and Ty are really good, but that may benefit them competing in that rule set so much where they can just get catches from positions like you were just talking about, where they sell it a bit um and get the catch, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Yeah, I understand the intention of that rule. It's just that like not all catches are equal, eh?

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Yeah, agreed. Agreed. Um before I forget, I just wanted to give a shout out to like um the Australians at uh when I went and visited New Wave, um Mo was there, Seb was there, and I got to meet them, and they were like super nice to me. And uh yeah, just before I forget, I know you mentioned Mo. Um, I just wanted to give them a proper shout out because uh they made my experience there very, very fun.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Um, they were in us boys, man.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Yeah. Um but yeah, when we were messaging on Instagram, you were mentioned mentioning wanting like you're you're very good at entering into positions, um, but you were hoping that we could talk about like finishing um from these positions. So I you mentioned uh you were studying, you're like a Mikey fanboy and study a lot of Mikey. Um, so I I went and entered like the I guess the issue with the database is I can't enter like flow grappling or like um you know UFC behind paywall matches, but I can enter them when they're on YouTube. So I went through and I entered all of Mikey's like training footage um and matches that were on YouTube. Um so yeah, I I found some stuff that maybe we could just talk about. Um obviously it's not too like fleshed out in my mind um because it's just been over the last couple days, but yeah. Um so I kind of made some folders here. Um one thing that I've been thinking about a lot recently is the idea of like because the thing that got me thinking about this was that trap leg pass that Levi's been doing, where you want to force that leg into retraction so then you can do the trap leg pass. And basically, like trying to have some sort of reason to put their own leg in retraction and then you keep it there. So, like if you're they have a low knee shield, you put some pressure, they transition to a high knee shield, they put their own foot towards their butt, and then you keep it there, and then you force it into that retraction. And in the case of leg entanglements, it can be the case when they're trying to pummel their secondary leg to the inside, they put their own foot into a retracted state. So if we can keep it in that retracted state, and Nikki Ryan chose, you know, crossing your feet to keep it in a retracted state, now their inside position becomes our control over their secondary leg, and we have like a form of double trouble. Um, so the idea of like when they put their own foot into a retracted state, you keep it there. Um, and one thing I've noticed a lot recently in leg entanglements, um, this is from double 50, but when people are pummeling their secondary leg out against good people, against bad people, they I think they can get away with not doing this, but against good people, they tend to lead with their knee and then their foot follows. So in this example, he flares his knee out, the foot stays behind, and then he counters. Um, this is another example from double 50, just to kind of drive home the uh the point here. But Helena goes double 50, she posts on the leg, the knee goes, and then the foot is still inside, and then she eventually frees her foot, and then now she's working to escape. Um, this is another Mikey example from double 50, but I think you get you get the that's one of my favorite matches to watch it for that, actually.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Oh, and this one? Sorry, I didn't I didn't mean to cut you off, but like that match there was really uh a bit of an eye-opener for me in that he catches just about every single position that he would generally finish someone in, but doesn't finish. And it's a weird one because it's looked at it as a match where he's not as successful, and I guess that's true by the metric of catching a submission. But the metric of like catching an entanglement is he's incredibly successful in every position. My feeling about that one is that he was just biasing going to outside Ashi and catching that straight ankle up, which was just I suppose something that Felipe is good at stopping, or eating, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Yeah, dude, Mikey was doing that for like seven minutes, just like trying to break his foot for the whole match, basically.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

But uh you know, it's it's funny that thing you mentioned about um about opening your knee, so uh bringing your knee in front of your foot to defend uh to step outside the secondary leg. Isn't that the truest thing ever? Um the uh my idea on that specifically is like the idea if you were if you were defending a leg lock, if they'd approached like uh if they'd attacked it on backside, like what happened with Owen Declan there. Or uh or even a reap. You know how Merry Garley does this all the time. Like someone will reap and then he'll sort of sit on his own heel. But my thought on that is it's bringing his head and or and his foot close together. My my idea on that is Crab Rad does effectively the same thing. Right, I thought I had this one. This guy's good. Yeah, yeah, I really thought that was gonna be that.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

So he goes exactly like you're talking about, he goes back side and then he'll free his knee first and then his foot follows.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's a really cool observation. That's a really good observation you made there.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

So this this by doing this movement, they're putting their own foot into a retracted state. So the idea would be by forcing them to pummel their knee out and then their foot second, if you can track their foot, now you're good, you know. That would be the uh the idea here. So you're trying to exploit them having to go knee first, foot second, and keep their foot retracted.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Right. So that's why you made the comparison to the honey stick, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Exactly, exactly. So um this was an example like way back, and I I just remembered it. Um, but the idea is so he goes knee first, foot's trying to follow, and from cross leg and like from crossashi, it seems to me like the top leg is the one that's responsible for trapping that foot. So this is this ends up being more of like a 50-50 type situation, but that seems to be the the sequence, like from cross ashi, they go knee first, foot second. Your top leg is the one that traps their foot. Um, and then this is an example I found of Powell doing it. So rotating, you could see he's making it hard for the defender to free their knee. Um Charles do. Yeah. Exactly. He's he's so good. I didn't I haven't watched the match because they haven't posted the full thing, but um his recent recent match with Ty, I just saw some highlights and kind of bummed he didn't win that one.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Oh, it's it's it's ludicrous. In Australia, it's on um it's on Disney. When you were talking about catches, I just had to like pull myself up because it's like a it's like a tick at this point. Anytime someone brings up one SC, I'm just like bro. The catch that Ty got was just like, oh yeah, yeah, good job. Yeah, good one. Yeah, it's like good job, 1SC.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

I yeah, I haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

No, no, no one will notice. Quick, put up another clip of him jumping off the ropes.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Yeah, yeah. The highlights. But uh, yeah, so from here, you can see the like what would be your like reaping leg from Krasashi is like extending to hook behind the knee. So this makes it hard, I think, for them to free their foot first, and they have to free their knee first. So as he frees his knee, he drops his heel like down towards the butt, and then he traps the foot. And then he finishes the inside heel hook. Here's an example of Kaya doing it, and this is where I think it starts to get very interesting. So Kenta goes knee first, his foot gets left behind, and then Kaya traps it. This I think is the sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Go. You have a question? No, no, no. I was just one of this is one of those movements because I remember you talking about skimming the leg, but from the context of outside ashi in one of your videos, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Or like off the off the reap. And then if they put that right.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

I have examples of that as well, but I think it's slightly different because I think the skim from like a straight leg entanglement, like single leg X or inside Ashi or outside Ashi, I think this the skimming happens from the the bottom leg as opposed to the reaping leg from single leg X, but from cross Ashi, the skimming happens from the top leg.

unknown 22:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

So this is what I've I've noticed. Um, but this I think is like the gold standard right here. Obviously, you know, Owen's rolling with this, you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Uh sometimes when you see a roll like this, uh a friend of mine made this observation once. Sometimes when you see someone rolling in the gym or rolling with Someone that they can hit their moves on, you get to see their intention a little bit better. Whereas if people are somewhat close in level, it's it's really tricky. It's really tricky to know exactly what they're after. Yeah. I'll give you an example in a little bit, but this is yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

So what I've noticed here is the reaping leg hooks behind the knee. The second leg is gonna pummel like inside as if you were going to crisscross Ashi. And then Owen's gonna grab the ankle with his hand. So he goes here, lets the knee go basically, grabs the ankle with his hand, and then his leg is gonna chop down like Powell did and Kaya did. Um, but because he pummeled into that crisscrosshi type position, now when he comes out on the other side, he locks a triangle to secure it in place. This is like checkmate.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

That looked incredibly intentional, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Yes, very intentional. I'll just replay it real quick.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Like with the other ones, you could say that that was sort of like a bit of a circumstance. Like obviously, they're performing the the right movement.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Yeah, wow, the other that you could tell that was kind of what boomed on.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Yeah. So yeah, I think the other ones, um, you could see Kaya, Kaya does it as well, which it makes me uh think this was very intentional on Kaya's part too. He he pummels his other leg into that crisscross ashi. So you could see he goes here and his other leg is coming inside. And then basically he could potentially walk the triangle for you. I think if he was able to get his leg deeper, but he's not able to, and Kenta ends up escaping.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

But that's basically I think sorry, it just sounds like I was sledging those other guys. What I meant with that was like like everyone, I think most people have the intention of if someone turns out from the saddle to go to double 50 these days, right? There's a way to like it's like the the extra hand that you need to control the secondary leg. But I think Owen grabbing it and then pulling the foot under his own knee. Yeah, I mean it could be the same thing. Like you could tell if if you're if in your mind you're thinking control the secondary leg, then happy accidents happen, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:29

Right, exactly. You kind of stumble into something. This reminds me, uh, I made a recent video on something that I've heard called a trap leg turk from wrestling.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

And uh I don't know if you said about passing for that, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Were you talking about passing for that one? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Yeah. And uh the first time I saw it in wrestling, it was like the guy hit a double leg, the guy like tried to turn the turtle and he ends just like ends up in this position. And then I was like, oh, there's no way like you could turn this into a reliable system. And he just kind of like fell into it. But then I ended up seeing like more and more examples, and then I saw it from that like reverse leg weave type position, or um, that like arm 50-50 type position that Mikey's been using. Um and I saw a wrestler like get to it from that type of position, and I was like, oh, this is gonna be good. So that kind of like yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

It makes sense because like if you watch uh Cole, Cole, like AOJ does that a lot. Like if you the old videos of Huffer drilling, you see that a lot.

SPEAKER_04 26:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

And it's like it kind of reminds me a little bit of uh remember Craig Jones made a video about pinning people, and it was a lot of it was picking up the highest leg. And then Joseph talks about it a lot, picking up the highest leg. It kind of tracks with that, right? If your goal is to keep someone in their back, then pulling that leg off the ground makes a lot of sense to me. I think it's tricky to progress, like past if if they're gonna if they're the type of player that's gonna concede to super, and then it's probably trickier to progress than than it otherwise would be because that hand would otherwise be in some way blocking the hip or trying to pull stopping them pulling their knees to their chest.

SPEAKER_04 27:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

But as it all as a way to keep someone on their back, it makes a lot of sense. All they can really do is turn away.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Right. Yeah, yeah, I guess it just depends on your goals. Um but yeah, that's a yeah, good point. Um yeah, yeah. No, you're good. This is this is the one I was talking about from uh that you were referencing. Um, but you can see like the reaping leg doesn't do the skimming from like single leg X type position. It's the other leg that does the skimming to trap the the leg. So this is what I was talking about previously, that I think it's slightly different um in like depending on the the leg entanglement that you're that you're using.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

Um I fully understand. I think it's a really good observation, man. That's that's pretty wild, actually.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Thank you. Um this was an example of Mikey trying to use his other leg. So you can see Mikey tries to skim it with his not his reaping leg, his other leg from Krosashi. And it didn't end up working. Um, so I don't I don't know, you know, but you could it seemed like Mikey was trying to trap it, but he did it with his other leg. So I don't know. It's I haven't played with it too much yet myself. Um, but yeah, just something I thought might be helpful. Um and then this is an example, just kind of link, because I know you like to go from cross-ashi to inside ashi and ideally turn onto your outside hip. But if you can't turn on your outside hip, sorry, go.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

Sorry, just about that. I'm not like a like stubborn about it or anything like that. Really, like for me, that was one of the my big problem has always been the finish, right? So that inside Ashi, I just watched Taylor Perman's run, and then my mate, uh, well, uh MD that you know had um had mentioned that it's just a really good way to deal with someone who's turning out, or or a way to deal with someone who's turning out. But man, I'm not like stuck on it or anything like that. I'm just looking for ways I find I can get to the entanglement with anyone. It's just that that the finish with the person who's more adept at leg box is is my issue. Because man, people spend so much time on it. They spend so much time on really strong finishes and escapes there, and they do full rounds of specific training where all I ever did was like a shitload of crab run, right? So it was like getting to the entanglement on people like that is quite easily. Uh is quite easy is quite no, not easy, but I'm saying like I get that. Uh, but maintaining the knee line and and and finishing is is like a pretty pretty big issue. Yeah, I mean you've seen it, right? Like if if you if you have an interest in in the way I do jujitsu, then most of the time I had a good shot of getting to the leg and then not finishing it. Yeah. This this right here, bro. This was this was such a soul for me. I went from not really able to keep anyone in any kind of leg entanglement to suddenly like just doing it over and over and over at the trials.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

It was, yeah, this was a huge win for me.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

Yeah. Both of those guys are good, by the way. Both of these guys.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

These guys? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

Yeah.

unknown 30:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

So in this example, Owen's in cross ashi and he passes it over to inside Ashi, and then uh he the defender turns like away to go into a turning escape. Um, so he goes inside Ashi, posts his hands on the mat, knee first, foot is gonna get trapped.

SPEAKER_04 30:30

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

Yeah. So I think I think this hopefully will help um with that like cross ashi. You finish an outside heel hook. Outside heel hump.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

Okay.

unknown 30:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Man, that stretch ashi position is tricky, huh? Because you think you've escaped. Like, you know, uh, like they're stretching their bottom leg and you think your knee line's not caught, but it is. That's like, I think the goal people should have in their head is to bring their head and their foot closer together rather than rather than to free their knee line, because you can still explode someone's like you could spin their shin really hard, regardless of like uh whether they think their knee line is free or not in that position specifically. I saw it in the gym the other day. Yeah, it was tricky. Sorry, one second. Sorry, one second, but I'll just be I'll just be right back. Okay. I could just I could just hear my daughter banging at the door.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

Okay, I'll leave the door, I'll leave the door open. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

You're good. How old are your daughter these days?

SPEAKER_02 31:55

She's two, she's just uh she's just sort of hit that stage where it's um she's become a tyrant and now it's whatever she whatever flips through her mind needs to happen, right? It doesn't and it actually does make you feel like a monster.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

It's funny. Yeah, the terrible twos, as I've heard them called.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Right, yeah, I think that's underselling it. Nah, she's actually she's actually the best.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

That's funny. Yeah, so I I have some folders right here. Let me just, I guess, ask you what you think would be most helpful. I have this uh because we only have like 20 more minutes. So K guard, I have like a like when you can't get your secondary leg to the inside, like from K-Guard, you go backside and then you try and pummel your feet to the inside, but then they uh turning it out. Yeah, exactly. Um, so I have a folder on that. I have a folder on like you're in K guard, and they're doing that like back step defense. And against Gavin, I I remember you trying to do this against Gavin or Gavin trying to do this against you, and then you switched from like ankle grip behind the knee grip to framing away. And then like basically he went from backstepping to like flaring his knee out and like sitting to his butt real quick. So, like by you letting go of his ankle, it allowed him to turn his knee out. So he like backstepped until you let go of his ankle and then you switch direction. Um, so maybe some uh ideas there. And then like this folder is based around the idea of like your K-guard entries are beautiful, especially like off the leg drag. But when you do it, your both your feet are already on that side of your their body um when you enter K-guard. So you can either leave your feet on that side of their body, you can pummel your like second leg back across, I think, which is what you would you know probably um prefer to do to get like underneath their armpits kind of thing. Um, or you could pummel your K-guard leg back across. So you leave your second leg on that side and you pummel your K-guard leg back across. So I made like a separate folder on each of those. Um, but yeah, that's like the remaining folders I have.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

I don't know which one you think would be most interesting, and then we can just go, but I think people struggle, like from what I've experienced, people really struggle to make that leg drag counter work, that leg trap counter work. So I think it's still interesting to people, right? Uh honestly, what do you what do you think would be more interesting? I want something like that other people could probably like try, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Yeah, yeah, we could do we could do these um and then just kind of exhaust from there. I don't uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Okay, um yeah, we'll just maybe that first one actually oh yeah, it's whatever.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

It's really no take on the 50 p.m.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

The first one because everyone can do this, right? Like this is like such a common experience. If you try to go to 50-50, then then people are gonna face you and you in this 50-50 battle, which is so frustrating for everyone. So the only time that that's not true, I think, is okay, yeah. Well, this is actually worth talking about because I uh if I were to do this K Guard entry, if I were to do like play out the first CJI again, uh big fella that I fought in the second match at Nazio, he was like if I touched his leg, he would he would run, and if I went to the saddle, it actually gives them a good opportunity to run. So I would say, like, um, did you see Gordon versus Vinny Magalesh how Gordon had two really strong saddle entries, right? And then Vinny was able to take height uh freeze knee line and eventually escape.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

And do that thing where he's like pressuring back into Gordon to not let him.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

Yeah, but so he's not I'm not saying that Vinny was running, he wasn't. What I'm saying is like that is just like the the correct path to escape, uh that sort of that disengagement. So if you just compare that to Craig's match with Vinny, where he goes to 50-50, puts a bend in the leg, and then now that escape is just not gonna work the same way. Yeah, right? So it's like uh, and then obviously what happened happened, which was uh um for myself, I I've had matches with uh there's this guy in Australia, he's a good competitor, his name's Bob Freas, and it was the same thing. I always prioritize Saddle because they can't do anything back to you, right? And if I'm gonna if I'm competing against a good leg locker, then they can only really escape, right? They they're gonna have to escape and then re-attack, like with the wedge, with uh uh junior, stuff like that. Where uh where uh if their intention is to just totally disengage and then re-engage on their term, I think tactically that makes a lot of sense. Uh it just doesn't make for the best thing to watch. If you watch the my match uh with Bob, there was a lot of disengaging as I made the entry. If you watch Declan's match, Declan uh Moody's match with Bob, he puts him in 50-50. As soon as they have to try and counter Leglock, then he's not trying to disengage anymore, and he just he was able to separate his feet and catch um catch the hill. Yeah, damn. This is cool.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

See if we can find it.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

Yeah. Yeah. I think I think uh Bob goes. Do you see how his hands are on the mat? Right, and he's he goes for a toll and then Declan takes the opportunity to separate his feet and then just it's actually the entry to this that was that was interesting, right? Because Declan um he goes he goes for an inside spin from from Reverse Delheba. He's really good at that, actually. And then uh goes for and then puts him in 50-50, yeah. So it was this, yeah, inside spin, and then I think he looks to reap at some point and then goes to 50-50. Most of my answers that I had been looking for um about how to make the attachment had come from like more tactical considerations. Like, you know how right at the start of this we were talking about Levi putting someone's hip on the mat and then they that hip in position was the best way to go to a clean saddle, and the cool thing about it is that you're controlling the secondary leg. And that's like where all this is going, right? Like when you when they turn out and you skin the leg, you're controlling the secondary leg but at the ankle. Um, which is honestly, I'm still tripping out about that. That's a really cool, really cool thing to point out. Like I'm gonna probably spend all week on that now. That's really cool, man.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Yeah, yeah, but we know but we know what you're fine too after you play with it. Because like I said, I haven't played with it too.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

I already know it's gonna work. You know those things that just they when you when you see it, it's like it it feels obvious, you know? Yeah, I think having the intention of doing that is gonna make a big difference. The uh my my thought on it was I'm not good at entering the the bolo off the weight abolo, but I can get people's hips to the mat using crab ride. So my thought was to enter um enter the saddle on the uh enter the saddle on what would at that time be the secondary leg from crab ride. And I actually had such a good shot at it with Chris Woji. Um I was dying. Yeah, at CJI too. It would have made such a huge difference. I uh you actually have a clip of of uh of it, but not not from me doing it, it's um DeAndre did it to someone at Sapatero. It was like uh go to crab ride and then I tried it in dirt and then go to the saddle on the other leg. I think this, yeah, here. Yeah. See what happened there? This is actually funny. So right after, because I knew there were two clips. So right after this, me and him have had a match before in 2021 McGee, and he footlocked me like that. So um most of the match was me entering, like up to that point, it was a short match. I did a Delhi rock balance, I uh I went for a straight ankle lock, and then the second and then missed it, the second time um it was like a decent shot at a straight ankle look, but he's it's he's actually really hard to straight ankle look. Um he's got like the PJ Barge feet, and then uh the second time um the second time I made the entry on him at at Worlds that time, I went to 50-50 uh because it was an IBGJF comp and 50-50 is where you install, yeah. But it turns out this guy, I had no idea at the time that you could even do a straight ankle lock like that. You know, like it just didn't exist. It was 2021.

SPEAKER_04 40:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

And he broke my ankle. Anyway, that sequence was essentially exactly the same sequence. I go knee behind, I enter crab rat, and then see how he just he's pulling my foot to 50-50, and he's gonna look to uh uh he's gonna look to eventually keep me on keep me on it's essentially breaks the same way that an outside heel hook would break. Right? So he it's it's awkward to explain, but essentially he's gonna look to um bring my knee outside the line on my hip and ankle, and that's when my ankle would explode, just like like the wage look, just like on a outside heel hook there. So anyway, um when he did that entry, we both giggled like straight after because it's like it's this it's it's now there's this many people watching, but we're doing exactly the same shit that we did.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

You know, you can see you are.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's quite funny. But I so better to see my intention with this match, because I actually do make the entry like in this match, I think it was one or two more times, and in both times he puts two hands on the mat and just scoots his butt away. Um, and it's because collecting the knee line has been quite hard. The the step up that I've made from it is um is entering off a leg drag. Because when you do a leg drag, it's like it it pins the hip on the mat, and the leg drag position, if you do it, uh if you do it right, can be exactly the same as the A2 position, except their foot is on it's actually even better for you because it's just on the other side of your body. So the idea would be crab ride to leg drag from leg drag to the saddle or spin a leg, or I mean create a leg entanglement off that leg drag position where the hips are on them, but otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

I see. So you do like a I see. So you go crab ride, leg drag, and then you like you drive your knee to like the opposite hip. I see what you're saying. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

There's a there's a clip of um of something very similar happening in d with DeAndre at Zapatero. I don't know who he did it to, but if he did a Nebar, I'm sure if you did like like DeAndre Nebar, uh let's just narrow it down right here.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

And then he finished the kneebar?

SPEAKER_02 42:40

I'm pretty sure. Oh, now I'm not sure. I don't know, because I just remember seeing it and thinking. Yeah, but see, okay, this is essentially it, right? Like this position right here. Do you see how, do you see how if if old mate put his other hip on the mat, it would just be that like say, say it's hard to see. Okay, as soon as he puts his left foot back inside, right? So here, if if he if the top player right now, uh oh, it's Josh Ceneros. Yeah, okay, he's a weapon. If he if he put that if he put his right hip on the mat, this would be that leg drag position. It's up on DeAndre's shoulder. Right. And I think it's up on DeAndre's shoulder because their intention is generally to come on top, which tactically makes a lot of sense. But this position would effectively be a leg drag position. Right. Right? Right. If if Josh was on his right hip. Right. So I think let's see. Let's see, I see. Sorry. But it plays out exactly the same way. I didn't know, I thought I was such a genius. I didn't know this match had happened until um until after I'd uh noticed that myself because I was doing a lot of spinning on my head. Um, so I didn't I didn't actually watch these guys at that time and then to realize they were doing the exact same thing. Like someone pointed it out to me on Instagram, they're like, oh yeah, that's that's what these guys do. Interesting. Damn, you're right. I think this is this this intention of pinning their head to the mat sort of blends the tactical consideration with just the idea of uh of having their legs crossed with um the wrong way and and uh double leg control. Because he gets a knee by here, I'm pretty sure, does it, doesn't he?

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Yeah. Yeah. So let me just explain this back to you just to make sure I'm like picturing it in my head well. Um so basically you're saying if Josh puts his right hip on the mat, DeAndre's past this leg across his body already. So if DeAndre drives his right knee to the right hip of Josh and keeps his second foot behind here, basically he would be in the same position he'd be in if you do a leg drag from crab ride and drove your knee to the opposite hip. And then you could like do that like Connie Basami and enter into cross-ashi on this one, or you could like spin the leg on this one to enter saddle.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

Yeah, 1 million percent. And that's what that's what generally happens for me in training. And the cool thing about it is see how his right foot is um tucked there. If you just step your right foot behind their knee, what happens is you know how like you're saying, they they they open their knee, yeah, or it keeps their knees so far away that by the time you spin the leg, they aren't able to introduce their secondary leg at all. I see. Right. So Interesting. That's why I was so I was so excited by what you were saying because it kind of adds an extra layer to it, where if they do introduce the foot, I could still trap the ankle. It's a little extra layer of mine. I see. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do. Very interesting. I pr pretty sure he catches the knee bar. Do you mind? Yeah. I don't know if he finishes it, but do you mind putt because that's like spinning the leg when he's oh yeah, see, he's pretty good, huh? Do you see how like uh so what happens when I enter the the same position? Uh far out his good in-he must have had his hand above the knee, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Um the belly down lat knee bar. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

And he's controlling both legs.

unknown 45:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Because when I tried this with Chris in that position where Josh is right there, he just kind of puts his hands on the mat and scoots away. And I was like, So you would lose the dreams. I lost the knee pad. Yeah. And we were talking about it afterwards. We're talking about I just got bro straight up. I actually was so gutted that I even competed against Chris. Like I think we just got played hard on that one. I I didn't think um like that were, I guess that was the frustrating thing um for a lot of people with the second CJ, which they're cooks with being frustrated, by the way, like such a crazy event, and then people people just want to point out the problems with it. But uh the matchups, the matchups, if you're uh if you don't continue on, um tend to you tend to miss a lot of the matchups you wanted to see, right? But I uh for that for that comment, um when I when I walked up and saw it was Chris Rojik, I was like, no, like of all the people, of all the people on their team to compete against, like Joseph's a really good passer and I like to play against um open guard against good passes, Nikki Rod and and Victor are like big fellas that would try to pass. So it was like of the people in that team, they were the ones that I not really Joseph, but because just because I knew him, but the other the other two specifically, especially Victor, right? Um we actually thought we were gonna compete against them. Like uh I wasn't originally gonna go if first Declan was gonna go first on the second day, and uh and I was gonna go out if um I was gonna go out if uh like they just they just went out against someone and had to get a submission, so I was gonna stay, I was gonna stay later and um or something like that. I can't remember what the exact idea was. I was just kind of doing what I was told. But then uh one of the people from um one of the people from Absolute had seen that it was Victor and Nikki warming up, like just those two warming up, and they were like, they're gonna go first. And then literally in the last minute or so we switched, um, myself and Declan. And then it turns out I was drilling with um, I was sort of drilling or or like comparing ideas on the match with with Chris after the match. And um Joseph had mentioned to Loki at that time that um that that was exactly what they'd planned on doing. Like that was exactly the idea. They'd had those guys warm up just to um just to because I don't know if they'd seen seen the the guy from Absolute uh watching them warm up or something like that. Because I mean we we were warming up ourselves, we weren't really paying attention to what they were doing. But then when the guy when the guy walked in and said that's when we switched, so I they played as hard. Because my you know my idea. I know, hey, my idea had been to um to put it on Instagram, to put it on Instagram and say, uh, should we do a rematch with with um Victor? Right? And I just thought like that would be a cool way to sort of prompt it, right? And then it and then that way like it would have been fun for the event just based on the first event, but also it would have been like like you won't do it, you know what I mean? Yeah, like um, you said you'd do it, do it. Um anyway, um anyway, they played us. I mean, I'm not saying it would have worked out for me, like uh, you know, I'm not I'm not saying it would have worked out at all, but uh at least you know, because seeing Chris, as soon as I saw it was Chris, when um I was like, oh god, yeah. I just knew what it was gonna be, you know. I uh well I was we're gonna try our hardest, but it was just me and him uh play like similar similarly in in a in a broad sense.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

Yeah, it is like you said, basically the one person on their team that wouldn't try and pass your guard. Everyone else would.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

I mean, yeah, he he's a good pastor as well. It just doesn't make sense as an approach if that's not the main game, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Yeah, no, he he is, I think like the first time the first time I was introduced to Chris was when I was just like randomly watching ADCC trials matches, and I was a big fan of Kieran Kachuk at the time. And Chris just bodylocked Kieran so much and shut down his guard, and that was the first time I had heard of Chris was from that trials. So yeah, and from his passing.

SPEAKER_02 50:19

So man, I hadn't I hadn't heard of Chris till he broke my foot. That was and I was like, surely, surely he's doing this to other people, and it turns out he was.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

So we have it's uh we got like five more minutes.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

Um I'll I'll spend a little bit longer. I I had messaged sort of highly on the side. I messaged one of the boys to sort of get it get it started. Um, so I I'll I'll I'll hang out for a bit, a bit, um, like maybe 15 more minutes if that's okay with you.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

Yeah, yeah. Um, let me just kind of cut to the chase on on these ones. Um but uh so for these entries, you go 50-50, they back step. Levi, like I think the the goal, right, is to put a bend in their their leg so you can start to work um for heel exposure. And basically Levi leaves his toes and then tries to create the bend, like creating like a reaping type effect with his knee. Um so like I think you'll agree, like Mikey, Levi, like all these people are so good at pummeling their knees. And they're not always necessarily trying to get their feet to the inside, but they're so good at getting their knees um behind or like using using their knees and pummeling their knees. So this is something I was thinking about. Um, and then I saw Mikey do this, which I thought was quite cool. So he goes here, same position, can't get his foot in. So he uses his uh knee and then his foot stays outside. And then when the defender tries to build up, then the foot comes in behind the knee and he already has control over the leg, so they can't like square up, and then now he's working, you know, towards the back. Um so yeah, I thought I thought this was quite um nice if you can't get your uh second foot inside and kind of turn out to the yeah. And then the ex the example of this would be the idea of like ideally you pummel your K guard foot outside before or like during their roll, so you already end up with both your feet on the inside.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

And then um Do you see how he's like uh sorry, man.

SPEAKER_02 52:38

Sorry. No, you're good. Do you see how his knees already pointed in that direction? So it's like he's already turning out. That's the my main issue with the um so what I'd like to do is just use like knee-bar pressure from Kdeguard to force them to turn, but because they're already turning in that movement, if they just go with the movement and bring their legs together, it makes it really hard. Like Mikey's done a good job here, could um it's a slightly different position. But see how he's in my mind, he's focused on both both of his legs on the on the secondary leg of um Harrison. So it's like he's not gonna be able to bring his knees together, right? Which if you're just like to think of it as like a simple mental cue, if you were to if someone were to enter your legs on the backside, if you were to turn and bring your legs together, then this would stop them getting inside position. Right. Right. So I think that is a good idea on that, but it's like I really struggle with it, man. I'll I'll get them to turn a lot. I think honestly, this is gonna be it's one of those things that I'm sign I'm slowly, like it took 50, 50,000 matches over the last two years to get up there. Well, I think I'm finally starting to concede that maybe I have to come on top, you know? I don't want to be that person, but maybe it's just like enter a leg drag from on top, you know?

SPEAKER_00 53:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

Uh your passing's good.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

Just tend not to pass that way. Like I just don't, even if I come on top, I tend not to hit it. I think do you have anything that you do that you maybe you've done it like 50,000 times in a different setting, and then all of a sudden it just feels different. I think it was because I didn't compete very much um through the belt range. So now doing it at black belt is or or with guys that are just really, really good leg lockers, where if you make a mistake, it can go really wrong. It's like all of a sudden very much in my head. Obviously, I've just got to bite the bullet and do it, right? That's just the nature of doing this. But uh, but man, there's just a second where I'm like, as I come up, I'm like, what am I doing? You know, like as I'm doing, I was like, I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

Uh yeah, like there's a lot more to lose now, right? Is basically what you're what you're saying. Like if it doesn't work. Um I don't know if I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

I'm still wrapping my head around it because the whole yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still wrapping my head around it. I don't know if it's a lot to lose, you know what I mean? It's more like uh it's just easily punished. And it's also very hard to look good. It's like like I swear it's this this thing at the moment where it's like the people I compete against are so freaking good, right? And then and a lot of the time, um, I don't know, I actually don't really know what the metric is for getting uh super parts. I'm just really grateful that the guys from Polaris just like my jujitsu and and put me on because team events is what I seem to get. And then in the team event, it's this it's this interesting thing. Like by the time I get to compete against someone, either they've had a match or I've had a match. The only real fair match is the very first one. That's why I keep trying to go first. It's because uh it's just because that's the that's the one where you get a match, right? And then bro, and then I went first with against the Polaris squads, and the person I went first against was Joseph, and it turns out turns out he's pretty good, hey. Not that easy to look great against.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

He just Yeah, his his passing is the probably the best right now. Um so that was a fun match to watch as a spectator. Um yeah, I'm glad that happened.

SPEAKER_02 56:04

Twice it was one of those ones I was I was yeah, twice, but the first one was the one that was like, but I think this because the second time, the second time we had a match here, I think it had three minutes. Yeah. Actually, by the time uh no, the second one I could wrap my head around, but the third time I went in that event, I was like, again, really? Like, are we really doing this a third time? I think Oliver Taza had the same experience. He's like, No, like really, why? That guy's so mentally strong that as soon as someone told him he had to go, he's like, Yes, let's do it. Whereas with me, I was I was pretty checked out at that point. Like there was a guy, there were our team was so checked out when we were competing against the that Polaris All-Stars team. Or I mean it's the Europe team, but it was the same team.

SPEAKER_04 56:46

It was the same as the Polaris All-Stars team, right?

SPEAKER_02 56:48

Where like uh at one point, uh one of the boys on my team was just like scrolling WhatsApp, and then um, and then another guy when when uh when Mateus was competing against could have been Hedge, I'm not sure. And Hedge is a weapon, by the way. You had a clip of him earlier, he's actually got a really like a top deep uh top like half-guard game. Like Lockie Giles also has a has a like a sincerely very good half-guard game, and they feel similar. But the uh the so Matez was competing against him, and then one of the guys on our team accidentally goes, Go Mateus. I mean, wait, I swear it was so like it was so demoralizing after about the first 20 minutes, you know. Yeah, sorry, I kind of I keep hijacking that. No, you're good.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

That's what uh it kind of reminds me of like Owen of Flanagan's strategy in that Polaris seems to be just like come in, get a submission, and then just like wrestle a bit and then get out. Like, don't go longer than two matches, you know, like three matches is crazy.

SPEAKER_02 57:53

But he's very clear about it. He's like, get a highlight, job done. You know what I mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:00

He leaves with like the most submissions in the whole event, and he's like, Yeah, just happy to be here.

SPEAKER_03 58:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:07

Legit, legit. You know, it'd be cool if it became like a like a bit of a league, because there'd be um like strategies around it. Like for poor bones, right? Like he goes uh he goes three matches, something like that. And I think he won the first couple. I can't remember who they're with, but then the because the last one was with Owen Jones, and then all the points he'd gotten for the first matches were kind of gotten back because Owen Jones submitted him because he'll do that, he's pretty good, and he's um, and then obviously big guy with the little guy that they give extra points. I think it's like three points if the the little guy submits a big guy. Yeah, but yeah, that was uh like if it became a bit of a bit more of a league and became a bit more widespread, like events in Australia are starting to do it. It would be pretty interesting. What I like about it is it takes um it takes like uh the submission or maybe maybe like okay, that would be an issue that I had um with the perception of CJI too, because the submission was the only thing that people were gonna look at and say, oh, now this is an eating match. You know? Right. And so it kind of ignores what we like about jiu-jitsu, there's all the nuance around it. Like you're you're looking at at matches of people collecting the secondary leg. Uh, if they like like Kaya, Kaya uh like didn't finish Kenta there, but it's still a very interesting exchange, right? And it's it's I think that's a that's a big part of jujitsu for me. Most of it is just about extremely interesting exchanges, and we want to see them as much as possible. I think the Polaris guys really, really um vibe with that thought as well. Like and I wish I wish that was part of the dominant culture because man, uh having like some person who'd never watched uh jujitsu at all just rip on you from the second row is like obviously it's part of it, and it's something you want to grow the sport, I guess, but at the same time it's like um thing with with like uh with football, like European football, right? Where matches will be one-one, but it's still very interesting, it's still very engaging. And I think maybe um I think commentators do a good job, good commentators do a good job of that, like paying attention to those nuances. Because man, there are there's there's never nothing happening, like 10 minutes of jujitsu where two people want to do it to each other, like 10 minutes of grappling, there's always something happening, like an interesting exchange. There just has to be. Like they're not gonna stand there and do nothing for 10 minutes, it's not gonna happen. So it's like talking about the intentions of that person. Because CJ 2 was such a good event. It was just like it was one of those crazy, crazy misunderstood things. I just also behaviourally, something really interesting is going on there with Quintet, actually. You know, like just as a as a counterpoint to that. I did uh like a kids camp, and these kids would roll together like DM all afternoon. And the second you set up a five versus five thing, they didn't want to let down the team, and so suddenly they did less. Interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

They just kind of sit down and they don't want to get submitted, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:22

Yeah, and it wasn't even about it wasn't even about actually the amount of prize that was happening, it was more about just like the nature of the team. You didn't want to let the team out. So it's like it was it would nearly be interest like an interesting study for someone to make about that. Um like like age-roll study, because it definitely did play, it definitely did add a add an element of um hesitation. I didn't feel hesitant at CJI too. I was really trying to do my jiu-jitsu, it just didn't happen. And it's like, I guess sometimes that happens, right? So it's like um or or or the matchups, the matchups are like that. Like, bro, how do you how do you footlook, how do you footlock PJ Barge? Does anyone do that? Like, how does that even work? Right, you know? The guy, the guy is pretty good at turns out, you know. Um and then Chris as well, how do you fucking how often does he really get past? Mika didn't do it, you know, far out. Like the guy's pretty good. But sorry, that was just my experience of CGR too, because we've watched a couple other clips.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

Yeah, no, um, like I watch tons of matches, and just to clarify your point, like if a match goes 10 minutes, there's probably at least like I would say like eight to twelve clips that all like highlight during that match, you know, like just because there wasn't a submission doesn't mean there's not any takeaways, whether it be some sort of grip fighting exchange or the intention they had during some sort of thing. Like, there's always something going on. Um, just to to prove your point, like you get caught up in the submission. And this is kind of what I was that wanted it, it inspired me to kind of get away from the statistic side of things because everyone was interested in submission data and that type of thing. And when you start to get more like granular of like what are the most common sweeps? What are the most common entries into whatever? It's like there's so many variables where it's like you go from you know, this position to this position to this position, and then you enter into SAT. And it's like, okay, well, where did the entry like what what category do you attribute that entry to? Is it like the you know the setup for it? Was it the like transition position? Was it there was just it was getting very hard to make any meaningful statistic out of it. And the only really meaningful statistic would be submissions, because they're the most like, you know, uh black and white, you know, like this is what the submission was. And personally, I didn't find it to be that interesting. You know, it was like we're gonna make a choke to the best. It's like cool, we all knew that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:12

Like um, right, because if you constantly have an just nature of the algorithm, right? If you have to make new videos, but the like you also had the intention of making a meaningful video, then you're gonna consistently say the same thing about that, aren't you? Right. So it's quite frustrating.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

Exactly. Um, so it didn't seem like there was gonna be enough like new content. And when I we were trying to make statistics for guard passes, for sweeps, for um different things, it was like it was hard to make any like meaningful statistics that I had any sort of confidence would hold credibility, you know. Like uh if someone does like a knee cut into like a you know outside passing and then they like you know switch sides with like that like scoop grip, thigh drag thing to like pass. It's like yeah, I I just thought it was it was just hard to like categorize everything um accordingly into like proper statistics, just because it was yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:15

Um and then you would have like funny thing about statistics, far out because you have to impose some sort of narrative on it, right? And then that's like sort of an issue with it, like getting objective metrics is semi-impossible. Right. Did you study statistics at uni or something like that?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:30

No, not at all. I'm just learning everything with ChatGBT helping me.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:34

So yeah, because it's really hard. It's really hard to actually wrap your head around how to make it, uh to not absolutely butcher it and then create a story, right? Like Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:44

And this was this is what I was afraid of.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:46

Yeah. I think um, I think so, okay. So what what is what have you found with the guard passing? Because that's really interesting to me. The uh like as an example, as an example, like if you were to talk to someone from AHJ, they'd say there's like a few stages, right? Like disengaging the guard, and then the actual pass itself will be sort of separate categories. And then ways to disengage the guard, they'd be like shinfold, heel flick, knee cut, like you mentioned, like knee cut, but then finish in north south. But no one, no one, if you're like learning it for the first time, would look at a knee cut and think that's gonna end in north south, you know. Right. So it's like it would nearly be like knee cut itself is a pass, but it's also a way to disengage the guard. They're nearly separated in that sense. Exactly. And this was if you were to, if you were to like sorry. No, no, I'm listening. No, no, you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:38

No, yeah, sorry, I don't we I keep cutting you off too, so I'm I'm sorry. Um, but basically, like exactly like you were you were saying, like if knee cut was the most common guard pass statistic-wise, like by far, I was afraid that the story behind that would be you get to half guard and you get your cross face and underhook and you kneecut, you know, or you get to de la giva and you kneecut. Like this is the way you pass. It's like by far the most common pass. And it's like, well, maybe when you actually dive in, most knee cuts are just to create an angle towards north south, and then you work to like. beat their frames after. So it's more of like outside passing um or like something like that. So this is exactly what I was afraid of of like specific passes being highlighted just because they're like used in a often like a lot of chain passing and there's different locations for if that makes sense. So um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:33

I suppose this somewhat speaks to like the CLA approach first like learning an individual technique and then teaching it to a class thing, right? Because you're trying to a big part of what you're trying to do is lend context to the situation. I was talking um I've I find the gyms that are the most successful usually take a rule set and then very uh teach very strong tactics around how to win in that rule set. There's this guy who makes they're like 20 minute reels but it's about how to win in an IBGJF comp. His name's Dan Lucart and uh I actually watched him like I know it's like poison for the for the algorithm to make a 20 minute reel but they're really interesting. And with uh like clip examples he's talking about specifically what athletes are looking for to win in that rule set beyond just like okay like here's an example. IBGJF rules everyone hates the double pull but the thing is the rules favor you coming on top because you get an advantage because the thing is and it's embedded in the rules it's obvious that sweeping someone is is easier than than passing their guard. So they get two points. So now the person is on top just like we're telling a story but it's a story that plays out over and over now the person on top is up two points but the person on bottom has the advantage. If you were to consider the match as a whole right the person on bottom is more likely to sweep than the person on top is likely to pass. So you'll see it over and over the person will then come on top they're up two points in advantage they just need to finish the match there. Right? As long as they stay ahead on that scoring the just that Cesaw of sweeps and they're able to make their game work just that much then they win. That's an example and gyms will teach to that like AOJ will constantly teach to that and you'll see them do three minute rounds with the intention of scoring creating a score and in my mind with that context right because you just want to be up several times whereas say uh say like just to make it a bit deeper I think um I must watch you remember those Kingsway uh YouTube clips and Danahoe was talking about like Danahoe was talking about getting their hips to the mat, taking inside position and coming up automatically and this makes sense. And then he he pri he talks mostly about how to pin someone or prioritises like creating a score after that. Or as an example like uh taking someone down and then stepping between their legs you want to you want to be putting clothes guard which in IBGJ if you wouldn't you want to be putting clothes guard because they're automatically pinned yet switched. So it's like like that's just as an example. So it's nearly like you teach you learn techniques you let we learn techniques when we go to jujitsu class but the techniques that we learn at least in decent gyms are kind of sort of determined by the rules the rule set that we mostly compete in. I think and to think that they're not is a bit of a a bit of a miscommunication on the part of the coach because they just are right like it's it's just there's no way to ignore that there's no reference that we have that aren't in a rule set unless we're just all going out and just whipping our phone out every time there's a street fight um it's it's it's it's like a pretty interesting thing and I think getting that across like how would you have an instructional get that across Josh Saunders made this point to me okay he made this point you would never this is gonna sound like a sledge and I don't mean it this way but I have to use the name so Locky Giles competes against Eurisamos right but no one's looking at Eurisamos and thinking hey this guy has better GGs it's just it's not a sledge it's not a shot I swear I don't mean it that way but his tactics are so sound that he's 180 cc um again right and his tactics are so strong that's why he's just he's he's able to make it work within that rule set that should be taught. That should be something that's taught I feel like that's kind of missed for um for bigger bigger fellows in jiu jitsu because no one really wants to learn from them. Gordon Ryan crashes out like crazy saying he's the uh saying he's like the most technical guy of all time and if that were true he wouldn't have felt the need to go up so many weight classes to compete against guys guys who are less technically sound than the people in that were in his original weight class which is when if you talk to when I talk to people about it most people would sort of agree that when he was 88 was when he was at his best. I that I that's my opinion anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:50

It's yeah he was so fun to watch watching those old ADCCs not even old but like you know a few years back.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:56

Yeah but it actually it's he it's nine years now I think that's crazy like 2017 when he won 88 that's crazy yeah I know I know um the uh the like it's nearly like uh what do you call it like one of those thoughts we know aren't true but say it all the time anyway like that guy must be tripping out at that all the time he went up because it was easier because if he'd stayed stayed in a lower weight class then people would have more success right um yeah so I think what he's really good at is tactics. Even going up in weight class suggests a tactic suggests a tactic to me. Right. Right? So it's like or or you'll hear him there's a YouTube clip of him coaching um the guy who does all the UK work for BJX fanatics. Placido he's coaching him at the trials and it's like just before the points period he's like put your foot back inside the guard so it can pass and things like that. Like it's a that's a tactical consideration not a technical one. You know but they go hand in hand. Using a knee cut to disengage the guard but then knowing that you're going to go to north south like what Kenta did at uh CJI Kenta does in webs matches if you if you can and he does it by the way he does it really well in general if someone goes a butterfly hook or tries to play inside position he will still punch it like a reverse body look like from his perspective as the player on top the movement is roughly the same. He did it with Pavel at that ocean there was actually a big argument about it because Pavel got a point for going to outside Ashie which Kenza didn't find threatening but he didn't get anything for doing that where he went to essentially north-south and Pavel took I don't know what the rule set is there so I don't I can't speak to whether that was like fair or not but um uh where I'm going with that is like they're nearly separate like what we were saying they're nearly separate but I don't know how you teach it and I don't really know how you'd get it across as easily as possible you know what it what did Josh say about it? Josh Sordner's that he that his point was about Yuri. His point was about and um the fact that Yuri was so uh so tactically sound but you wouldn't likely go to his seminar to learn what he did there you know because what we value is techniques yeah and then it's nearly like there's an embedded understanding that those techniques end in a submission right that's kind of just to marry it with what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:18

Um would I wonder I've I have no clue so I'm just like you know throwing yeah I have no clue. But if you did go to a Yuri seminar would he teach tactics or would he teach techniques?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:33

But that I mean that's I I think like as a culture out in jujitsu our understanding is that when you go to a seminar you're learning exactly new techniques innovative techniques right like when we go and generally the people that do the best with that kind of work like when Lucky Giles did has has the 5050 finishes or or Pavel you want to go learn false read from Pavel or Owen Flanagan you want to learn outside ashe or like wrist snaps I guess now like you know what I mean you um Craig Jones Craig Jones you want to learn literally whatever bullshit he's he's in the mood of showing that day you know a big part of what we're learning from Craig Jones is just that he's funny. But uh like the uh which is fine like it's it's fine but I think that could be our its whole avenue of of uh like seminar study or whatever instructional study. Yeah Saunders made an instructional and it was like connecting attacks. That was uh his thing there and I was like I can sort of see the start of that in it. And I know people that come from like that school that new way of school tend not to like the the uh constraints led approach but then a lot of what they do like creativity drills and stuff like that seems pretty constraint led approachy to me you know um yeah for sure yeah I'm not sure I'm not sure but clearly there's something to that because it's like lending context to individual techniques is so so important. Otherwise we just like tread water for so long learning jujitsu. Yeah I don't know how you'd learn crable like that I'm still tripping out about that. I've never seen someone like a really good Bolo player have learned it from CLA. Right. It's weird. It's nearly like you need to be it's nearly like you need to be incredibly stubborn in the pursuit of something that is not tactically sound to then apply it.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:24

Yeah I don't know I don't know I'm still wrapping my head around it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:28

Yeah I haven't I haven't seen it but there's the do you know who Heath Heath is the referee with the like afro uh Longhead um yeah I know him because I think uh ND uh live with him or something like that or gotcha yeah something like that but he made an instructional because he's a ref at ADCC and he I haven't seen it but he made an instructional about at least from my understanding was about the rules and like how to tactically prepare to compete under that rule set. So this might be like the closest we get to a product like that in the current market.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:06

I think I love hearing things like that I I I would actually sincerely watch that because like obviously he would know the rules. You hear Greg Sadders talk about it it's like if if his students get put in a double pull then he will always look for a leg across as in he wants his students to have inside position with a leg across because just it creates a funnel for the the other player where they can only really lose right like if they come up you're wrestling up or spinning to 50-50 if they stay in double pool you can enter the saddle or some sort of inside position or you're come on top with the leg drag right and it makes a lot of sense a series of those for for J2 like high jf competitions I find those are the students that do the best right those are the the people that can apply those tactics it's like techniques it's like tactics would be like the skeleton and techniques you sort of pin to it I guess I don't know it's been on my mind a lot lately because obviously obviously I cook that a little bit right like I'm I'm sitting here trying to let people have a leg drag so I can enter their legs it just seems a bit goofy you know I'm not really trying to do that by the way that's not really what I'm trying to do. It's more like if you have to go five minutes, five minutes, five minutes, five minutes in the in the Polaris comp, then it's like it's too exhausting. Like you have to be able to do jujitsu while you're exhausted so it's like what you do and for me that's it. It's all part of it. Give a stack give a stack so they actually hold on to you so you don't have to like deal with someone who's running away because chasing someone who's running away is obviously firing. I have to touch you. Yeah that is a lot of me guessing about it. Yeah I'm not trying to be a dork about it when I do it like yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:48

A couple of the clips it looked like you were even just like giving them the leg drag they weren't putting their your foot in their in their armpit and you were just like I'm gonna put my foot in your armpit for you kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:59

Yeah well it makes sense right like it it's like uh I can't constantly be coming to them I just get exhausted and then submitted. Yep. Um Joseph mentioned it after we competed that he'd seen in the previous Polaris that I was somewhat susceptible to a stack but what I had been trying to do and I am I guess but because my hips come off the mat. So if you can like say use the Torriendo to walk to North South my own hips will come off the mat. So it makes sense my hand screws are exposed you can grab them and then or like scoop them and then you're in a stack. It makes sense. And a lot of that was but then when I was competing against him I didn't get put there nearly as much because I was way more diligent just knowing that he was good at it right because I just knew I wouldn't get away with it with him. So it was like with the with the South American team the reason I did it was because I knew a lot of what they had been or I I would have guessed that a lot of what they'd been training was to disengage. Whereas with Joseph that guy's not disengaging from nothing that guy wants blood. You don't know I'm just kidding but like he really wants to pass. Like if he sees a guard he wants to pass that thing you know what I mean he's like a dog with a bone with that so it's like I'm I like giving something away to him would be terribly terribly bad. Like it just wouldn't it wouldn't go at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:10

It goes back to what you were talking about where like uh like there's a lot of context behind the techniques or tactics you choose to use and your opponent is one of those you know variables you consider when you're determining what you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:25

Um and I was gutted with that man because like for me that was sorry man I know you you probably gotta get out of here. No we're good I'm worried about you with that match in particular uh I was so proud I was so proud that uh like for me like I kind of mentioned at the start of uh at the start of talking to you I've only watched these people like until until the trials in 2024 no one know who no one knew who I was even around Sydney no one no one knew like I um so like I'd only ever watch these people through a screen like exactly what I'm doing right now to compete against them for me that was such a such a proud moment and then to uh even make attacks to sort of be progressing with my positions to do to focus on the details of the technique and then to apply it in this massive like massive stage for me I was so so proud of that and it just got zero fucking attention like none because some of the stuff that I was doing there I had never done before until like I was I was doing it in the comp. And to have someone like that running at your guard, you know, and I really feel like like yeah that's like that Joseph Joseph really is very very good um so I don't know how to get it across to people because I obviously myself I obviously myself like look up to a lot of these competitors in so many ways just having to having literally looked looked at them through the screen for so long and learned so much of of watching them to now be in a position where I'm trying to like somewhat get a few more followers so I can get matches and super fights. I'm just not really sure how to go about it in an in an appropriate way because I don't want I don't want to do the thing where I just have to be like like I don't know there's like archetypes in jiu jitsu half of the people are just right wing dickheads you know you gotta call out Victor Hugo that's yeah I mean no Farris Farris is Farris is getting that one done I bro I would say that's yeah that's one of those things Victor Hugo that's one of those things that he said he at the time said he wanted a rematch but bro like just take all the personality aside from it. Yes good job you're a champion and yep like you you were a tough man just aside from all that right technically it's just not true that he would want that match because it's where he's weakest. Right. It's just that like if someone can make an entanglement on him and actually put his hips on the mat then Matt's cooked and he would be cooked regardless of how big he is or what his other skill sets are you know so it's like no you don't want that match. I would want that match I I would want that match because there's there's like there's no downside to me for that for me in that except you know horrendous back pain afterwards but like but anyway the uh I'm hoping to one day do that match I'm trying to I'm gonna go on this is so irrelevant but I'm about to it's school holidays right now so my missus has more time to uh to look after our daughter while she's working I I'll I I take the the day to look after El the um so in that time I'm gonna go and make just like an absolutely stunning amount of Instagram and Patreon stuff so I can just sort of set it to upload for the next so often and hopefully in that time I get enough followers I can get matches like that. That's what I really want. And then then I can see if this leg drag stuff and hopefully skimming the leg and that actually are actually gonna make a difference to the game. I think it will I think it'll make a massive difference just getting the matches I'm just again really lucky that um like guys like Polaris and CGI will have me on uh because it's some it somewhat helps get my name out there but what I really struggle with is the marketing I hate how much of a role that plays in jujitsu at the moment because but whatever you know like just do it hey you should expect at least a hundred thousand followers after being on our podcast so there you go. I will I'll actually be really angry at you personally if it doesn't happen. I do have to run I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:23

Yeah no of course I actually really enjoy yeping at you all good thanks for uh staying much longer than you allowed for so uh yeah we'll uh we'll be in touch and uh yeah we'll I'm sure we'll have some more conversations in the future too I'm sorry we didn't get to talk more sorry look at this look at this this has been the whole time oh come here this is just doing stuff the whole time I don't know if you got to say yeah just do one I think I'll see you guys cool later look at