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Brand new White Belt Josh Lu calls on Jake Luigi, BJJ Youtuber from "Less Impressed More Involved BJJ", and other guests for help on the path to improvement, performance, and enjoyment in the sport of Jiu Jitsu. Follow the journey!
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#180: CLA Coaching Panel - Alex Zurhake, Gino Pereira, and Mateusz Flaga
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In this episode, I chat with Alex, Gino, and Mateusz about their journey's evolving and coaching with the contraint led approach. Hope you enjoy another edition to our coaching panel series! You can check out the Standard Jiu Jitsu Skool community here.
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Welcome to 1-800 BJJ Help. Today we've got another CLA coaching panel on the podcast. I will admit I actually had these guys scheduled a few weeks ago and I completely did not show up to the episode. And poor Alex had to host early in the morning as he just woke up and they did an impromptu recording, uh, which was really great. So, in a way, this is kind of like a part two of the CLA coaching panel. And uh shout out to Alex, your guys' podcast, uh Rise to Thrive. I'll put a link in the description to catch part one. But um, yeah, we've got Alex and Gino in the house today um to talk about the CLA coaching journey and to kick us off. Uh maybe Gino, if you could quickly introduce yourself, where you're from, how long you've been training, and how long you've been coaching with CLA.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, good yeah. My name is Gino Pereira. Uh I own and run Balance Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu uh in North Brisbane in Australia. Uh I've been training since 2009. Um a black belt, and we've been doing CLA for three and a half, nearly four years. Um yeah, it's been a good journey so far and keep going onwards with that.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. And then Alex. Hey, I'm Alex Turhake. Um, I'm having my gym, Team Laureen and Alex, together with my wife in Munich. Um, we started CLA uh in 2020, before it was really known in the jiu-jitsu scene. Um, yeah, I'm training jiu-jitsu for 11 years and other martial arts all my life.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Yeah, Alex, I think you may be like one of the earliest adopters that I've personally spoken to, besides uh Greg. So excited to hear a lot of your thoughts today. Um, Gino, I remember from the first episode, if I remember correctly, when you first heard Greg, you were like, This is you totally did not agree with it, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what was your do you remember your first impressions?
SPEAKER_00I think I think I heard him on a BJJ Mental Models podcast, and he just was so like from not knowing him, he seemed so brash, so confident in what he was saying, and so it what it felt like really dismissive of everything else. And as it like I was a coach, I was trying to do my best, and for someone just to what it felt like telling me what you're doing sucks. Oh man, it was it was yeah, it was hard. I hated him at first, but I love him now. I got a lot of respect for him. He's been uh a massive, massive mentor of mine. Um, but I thought he was a fucking I'm sorry for swearing, I thought he was an idiot at the start.
SPEAKER_01Um and then Alex, what was your very first impression of Craig or of CLA? Well, I yeah, actually for most of us, our first impression of CLA was Greg, but for you it wasn't, right?
SPEAKER_02No, for me it was like, oh finally there's somebody out who is doing the same stuff who also believes in it. And um, yeah, so that that was um yeah, was was actually cool to see that that we're not alone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Alex, for you guys, how did you get introduced to CLA and ecological dynamics again?
SPEAKER_02So we um studied trauma-informed coaching practices. Um so how can everybody uh train hard also when they have some uh baggage? How can we help people to um through martial arts? Um and yeah, we started with trauma-informed yoga and applied that to to uh jujitsu, but then we wanted and also self-defense and stuff, and then we wanted to go deeper, and then we started reading reading literature, and then um literature says a lot like you need to keep the uh nervous system and rest and digest. You don't want people to get and fight flight, otherwise there is no learning. And then okay, but how do we do that? And that is through um usually through games. Games uh bring us automatically in an optimal learning state, and then also we want to keep the success rate at 70-80%. Of course, there's also ways to reframe what successes and stuff like that. But then we were like, okay, but how do we play games to learn? And through that rabbit hole, we got into ecological dynamics. So actually, why more via the ecological psychology we got into ecological dynamics? And then yeah, we started reading papers trying to wrap our mind around like as non-native uh English speakers trying to understand the terminology. Um yeah, because also Rob Grey, how we learned to move, was not there yet. Uh, so yeah, it was a lot of trial and error. Um, but what actually also really helped um with our self-defense classes early uh already before 2020, we were like, it makes no sense to give them this trick or that trick because we don't know what's gonna happen. Uh so how can we so we just did kind of uh scenarios that we simplified and made made way easier, and then we just played scenarios and we were like, how come that those women who haven't trained before move much more like grapplers than people who are already training for a while? Why do we get the feeling that those ladies that don't know how to shrimp will totally out-grapple people that train for a while? And that didn't make sense till yeah, we got deeper into um the literature and everything.
SPEAKER_01So wow, and uh when you guys were studying the literature, that was like pre-Chat GPT. Like you guys didn't have any help at the time, my gosh.
SPEAKER_02Um also also when uh in the early days of Chat GPT, um it would when you ask it about ecological dynamics, it would tell you something over uh dynamic environmental things like uh you know, like uh green energy and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_01Wow. So Gino, how did you go from thinking, you know, Greg's an idiot, like what the heck is he talking about, to then having your first aha moment and starting to change your mind a bit?
SPEAKER_00I was at a bit of a crossroads. We'd had our gym for a couple of years, and we were just the standard IP model, and it was things were going well, but I was a few different different reasons. But firstly, we would have I would teach a series of techniques, but we would have certain people with certain different body types, and it would almost be like, sorry, John, this doesn't work for you, probably not gonna work for your body type. Hey Bill, that won't work for you. And so that started in a bit of a thought process of like this can't be the thing, or this there has to be another way that we can communicate grappling that's gonna there's gonna cross across all these similarities across all body types that that shouldn't be a thing. They should be able to be adapt their own version of whatever I'm trying to show them based on their body type. So that started me. I was already kind of questioning some things uh before I heard Greg and the yelling and whatnot. And then another coach, uh a pretty well-known coach uh over here in Australia. Um, he only runs training sessions out of his garage. I was training in his garage, it was at 4:30 a.m., but he had a pretty effective room and it was only really brown belts and black belts. But the more I started to listen to Greg, I could start to see what that coach was doing. Because his sessions weren't necessarily like normal sessions, it was a lot of live work, put you in a situation, tell you to do this, and you we would just go. And a lot of people in his room that were very effective, so I started to connect the dots, and then that just started the process. It was like now I have to read all the things. I I was stalking Greg any podcast, any YouTube video I could see him on, I would try to listen to that and any name that he mentioned. Then I'm like researching who's Rob, who's this, who's that. Uh, and then eventually it's like I I think I contacted Greg a couple of weeks after I first heard him, and I sent him a million text walls of like, I've got an idea for this game, and I got just so obnoxious. I'll just it's so embarrassing to say now. And if I look back at the messages now, I I couldn't even finish reading, they were so embarrassing, but um, yeah, that's that's how the process started.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Um, for both of you, I'm I am curious about like the first times you tried to apply it. Um do you know how like so you're listening, you're catching on as a practitioner, I guess. How about the first time you tried applying it as a coach?
SPEAKER_00So we've got a pretty good sized gym. Um yeah, like it's a pretty decent sized gym for our area. And one day I just made the switch. Like it was just like I flicked a switch, I came in, I think it was a Saturday. Uh I taught uh an all-levels practice and I just ran straight games the whole time. And then from that point on, the next Monday when we we reopened, all kids' sessions were all CLA, everything was CLA. Um and for better or worse, there were some rough practices, there was a lot of hella over constrained stuff. But we just I just learned as we went and um we haven't looked back.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I hear over and over again a lot of the common mistakes is like over-constraining stuff or just trying to force techniques to happen within the game, but then really like it just ends up being like you're forcing one solution. Um when you first introduced it, did Gino did you um did you tell them like, hey, today's gonna be a little different, or did you just jump straight in and put them into the scenarios?
SPEAKER_00I did, I did do the whole like, uh, we're gonna try this thing, just trust me and we'll see how it goes kind of thing. Um I I think because we just jumped in, people didn't really get a chance to have an opinion or have a say. I'm just fortunate that people trust me as the coach and my wife, she kind of trusts me as well. Well, she definitely trusts me, and we just went with it. And it's uh it's it's been good.
SPEAKER_01Wow. And Alex, how about for you? What was it like first implementing it? And did how did you frame it to and introduce it to the students?
SPEAKER_02We were just like, hey, we try some new stuff. Um, and yeah, it was certainly a lot of trying to force uh techniques through um games. And yeah, Dahmer has phrased it uh lately very well, like you get this tug of war when it's over constrained, it's it's more like strength versus strength, and um yeah, so then we under constraints, so we got more positional sparring, and we went back to showing some techniques in that practice because somehow it didn't work, and then we tried again. So we tried, I think, for about one and a half year two years to figure it out, and after one and a half years or so it really clicked, and then uh yeah, since then we we do full CLA, pure eco, however. Um but yeah, it was a lot of trial and errors and um thinking about it, and why did this happen, why did they behave that way? We had also very early on some really cool um success. Um with also games I wouldn't play like that anymore, where I was just like, okay, this is a triangle, find out cool things, uh, how to get in there from any position you like. Um, so there was not really resistance, but there was creativity, and we got people to we got kids to to do chump guards, or we will uh chump triangles, so we will also we're like, okay, but you're not allowed to do that in competition, guys. Um so we we experimented with a lot of of stuff that partially worked, partially not, um, but it was exciting and people enjoyed it because it was playful. Um, there was no winning or losing, or winning or losing became more a okay, did it work or did it not work thing and not a I lost, I suck thing, if you know what I mean. Yeah. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01You mentioned a year and a half is quite a long journey, a year and a half of just experimenting. You mentioned uh at that point it clicked. Do you remember what it clicked?
SPEAKER_02Um I think it was pretty much just after. So I I can't quite remember, but it was like uh suddenly uh nearly all all the games we played kind of worked towards. I think that the real click was actually um when we started to think about jujitsu differently. Um because well I I did traditional martial arts since I'm six or so. Um a lot of drilling, drilling, drilling, drilling, in the beginning, especially more drilling than than average sparring or something. So it's like thinking through techniques, thinking through those steps instead of thinking through what we actually need to do. Um and invariance, thinking about invariance, what needs to be there, um actually helped, also when it's um debated what are actually invariants and how helpful are they, or that we can also discover them. Uh, but thinking about it uh really helped to um change the way we think about jujutsu, and um with that the games got a lot better, and then yeah, then there was no looking back anymore. Um yeah, and I think also their uh Greg's framework really helps to think about jujitsu differently.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah. How about for you, Gino? You said um sometimes like like the practices would be really bad at first, and sometimes they'd be good. How did you start to hone in on the skill of of coaching with with CLA?
SPEAKER_00Well, you don't know what you don't know, right Josh. Like you you're going with all the best intentions, and my my knowledge about CLA was like minimal, uh, but I jumped right into it. So there was always gonna be like rough patches. I think um like it's it's not that it hasn't I we I I would be lying if I said there was like oh we've got it figured out now, now we know this is what we do, and I think uh I'm hypercritical, so I could easily be like last week I did this, this wasn't great, I should have changed that. This is um, but I think it's just a gradual process. But when you can see, I think a big thing to see as a coach that lets me know this is like what I ask my coaches to look at or to to judge a practice by as is like engagement in the room. Like when you can see them engaged in the tasks, just focus on the task, the work is getting done, and they look like they're doing the things you're asking them to do. Uh, they look like they're they're in the environment, so they're not like there's less stopping and chatting or talking about stuff, they're just challenge points perfect, the task is set perfectly. You when you start to see that more, um, that for me is reassuring. It's like, okay, I think we're doing I think we're doing the right thing. I think I'm onto a winning here. I think in terms of like aha moments, uh, we one of the first kids' sessions that we did, we just did this basic, uh, I think it was one of it was one of Greg's games, no, I'm not gonna lie, it was just this chest to chess passing game, and it was like they start with like chest to chest connection and head and arm trap, and they just had to free their trapped leg using their their free leg. We did that, and the amount of kids doing just like beautiful guard passing, like freeing their leg, like heisting their hips up, passing the knee, it was crazy. So me and the other coaches were like, Oh my god, we did it! Like, we're amazing, like, oh, look at the magic. And even though it wasn't my design and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But when you see that happen with a bunch of four-year-olds, sep to seven-year-olds, and they're passing guard like that, that was very reassuring. Very reassuring.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Um, any um, Alex, for you guys, any common or what what would you say were some of the biggest challenges with improving in your CLA coaching that you had to overcome?
SPEAKER_02I think that the first uh thing was this abstract stuff from literature and getting it into practice, um, wrapping our our minds around uh what uh they mean. A good thing was uh many of the studies have examples, but of course there are especially then there were none about martial arts uh in a there was one boxing bag study uh that where the distance changes the punches. Um but yeah, it's it's uh it was hard to to translate that and into practice. I think that was the the biggest challenge and having nobody who who did it who we could talk to in the beginning, especially. Got better over time, obviously, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I can't believe you guys stuck with me for that long with nobody else trying it. Um Gino mentioned an interesting topic about uh like how do you define quote unquote success or like what to look for in terms of what's working in a room. Um like picking a good task or like an effective task versus one that may be unclear. Alex, how do you think about when you give a game or there's going live? What are you looking for to understand if it's effective or not?
SPEAKER_02Um I think Chino's question was a bit in a different direction, but I'll answer uh that first. Okay. Um I think what I'm looking for is are they engaged in the practice and are is uh do they have the intentions right? And do they focus on the right things? Um then of course what is right, but uh the easiest way is do I see um that they go in different directions and not do this this uh tug of war? And do they um does it uh look like uh actual grappling? Does it look like a slice of actual uh matches? And then that's usually um helpful. Yeah, I think Chino's question um or point was more like when people um did technique, they got this dopamine head, they they did they learned three techniques, they think they have through three more tools in their in their toolbox or however you want to phrase it. But when we do CLA, um then they engage in practice, they sweat it, they worked hard, but uh in the end there is no metric that really did I improve because uh when I practice my offense, the other one is practing uh practicing their defense. So when we spar the we might do different things, we probably hopefully do different things, but the outcome is not different from last week because the same guy was there last week. So we are we're both improving at a probably similar rate. So one goes maybe a little ahead, but it's very hard to be like, I really learn, I'm really getting better. Um sometimes because yeah, when you when you play other sports, when you do lifting, you're like counting the plates, okay. I have more weight on when you're running, it's like okay, I improved my time. But that can with with grappling sometimes um be difficult. Um yeah. So uh what we try to do is uh point out when people do really good stuff in sparring, for example, um, so that they connect that because often they do something amazing. Yesterday we had uh a guy suddenly do a kind of uh sayonage type of throw, uh kind of out of nowhere, and we were like, hey, that was so cool. And he's like, Yeah, because I he was struggling, he he had the feeling he's not improving. But then he was like, Yeah, actually, um since this worked, I feel like okay, I I I I am actually actually improving because I I couldn't do that before. Um so yeah it's a lot of um talking to people where they feel that they are stuck and um also showing them like hey you are progressing you are improving and yeah it's not this this simple metric uh like like before we're like yeah but you've got three new tricks yeah but they're not working inspiring yeah just keep showing up trust the process do you know I see you shaking your head what are your thoughts yeah I think I I think that's actually like a bigger topic for CLA coaching especially like CLA coaches who own a gym or who want to run CLA in a gym that they don't own I think like for us I just would I call it the it's the exchange problem in that with the old method like like Alex was saying you'd come in and coach would give you these new three moves right so we're just dealers in novelty like here's a new move that I know you won't remember you know you won't remember you're never going to hit I'll never see you hit but that dopamine hit from that exchange what we do now is we're asking them to work hard and that can be a problem.
SPEAKER_00So we have had students in the past express like I just I miss when I get the details I miss those little things. What we've what we've clung to or myself as the head coach has clung to I've I've I'm swapping out the exchange or the dopamine hit from that exchange of knowledge. We're swapping it out with intention so now we're just trying to sh have the grappler the individual learner be at try to get them to be as intentional and take as much ownership of their grappling as possible because what happens now they're not looking at me the coach for the direction they're not looking at me as the coach for the improvement now they're looking at themselves. So now when they come into a session it's like oh I'm working on like hand fighting to a connection from the standing position. And so if they get to have moments in those spots if they work on those areas whether it be they are successful or they fail the opportunity and the work they do in those areas with intentionality that swapped out the dopamine hit and now they're just working and now you it's never going to get old intention is just going to be rebirth again and again and again. If you got good at that area there's a always a new area of intention to build on so that's what we're trying to do in our room now to solve the exchange problem is it's all about intention. How intentional can you be how specific and intentional can you be and I think it's start we're starting to see a lot less of the I miss the moves I miss all that stuff. I like details I want to chat about it. Now it's like oh I'm trying to work I'm trying to solve these problems and once we can get into that those conversations I can have those conversations forever and ever and ever and that's going to be a learner who will stay engaged for as long as they play the game.
SPEAKER_01Yeah what I'm hearing is it sounds like you're reframing some of the dopamine in the student's mind where this is what I'm searching for, this is what I'm gaining rather than that thing that I thought I was gaining but it wasn't really it was just like a surface area novelty thing.
SPEAKER_00A hundred percent a hundred percent and it's like for a coach I remember just like I would that was what started me on that wheel of like I have to find another way because I was like a couple of years into running a gym and I'd been teaching a long time before that I was like running out of novelty.
SPEAKER_02I was showing stuff that no one should show that no one should ever use I my coaches still burn me to this day I showed a Kimura where I would start from the top and I would roll over myself they would roll over me three times and then I'd finish the Kimura just because it was like it's novel and it's a 12 pm lunch class on a Tuesday I needed to show you something that's not real grappling and that's not an exchange of knowledge that's just I have a job I have to do and I'm fulfilling my my job the change has been yeah it's been a massive change but there's a lot of coaches out there still showing those rolling Kimoras for the fun of it you know um culturally what are some other like big cultural shifts uh outside of just the pure skill acquisition aspect of CLA uh in the science of all that and practice design what are some cultural things outside of it as a result of of working this way maybe Alex you can start uh sure I find um the biggest change is going from sparring is like I really want to win and you have some some ego battles to have um the ego battles pretty much disappearing and people are like um much more like trying to figure out stuff they will still uh compete hard for the things that that matter um they'll still like actually uh I find uh practice or especially also sparring got on the one hand um uh more intense but on the other hand also much safer because uh people uh understand what they are looking for and why they're doing what they are doing and not just spamming moves because when spamming a move goes wrong um and the other one spams a move at the same time then often you get uh situations where you where you get injuries uh now they know exactly what they are looking for so also when uh when somebody gets caught or uh also when a higher belt gets caught by by a lower belt they are like oh that was so cool uh how did you do that what were you looking for instead of like going harder to get them back or something so yeah big cultural shift we also noticed is like belts do not matter so much anymore because they don't they are like okay you you compete in that bracket and stuff like that but in in actual practice and during in the training room uh they do not matter that much anymore.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Do you know how about any other any other cultural observations similar to what Alex was saying I think another thing for us is what we're just doing is work we obviously we're asking people to look at grappling differently and I think that takes time. So now I think in our the language in our room when you can hear people speaking about an exchange or speaking about a role they just had between rounds that feedback process it always used to be like I try to hit this move I couldn't hit that move I try to do this cool like whatever kiss of the dragon move or blah blah blah blah blah but now it's very very external and it's very very like I'm trying to do a thing to your body and we could try to have the guy speaking conditions and effects I was like I was trying to get under your elbows. I was trying to like put the head and the arm together very very conditions and effects language now not necessarily just talking about moves and spamming moves. And then I think the same thing culturally as well is just people come in now ready to work for an hour. They're just ready to come put their hard hat on go to work do what they have to do and then if they can do 10 rounds after okay they can if they can't they go home but that work that work like attitude like just putting your hard hat on and clocking in and getting work done that's definitely a big thing now in the room. Did you uh lose anyone along the way as you're transitioning from the old technique style to full CLA we uh we haven't had any of our members that were with us initially leave because of it. We did a gym near us uh a gym like five minutes down the road they closed uh early last year so we got a a bunch of their members come and we did lose all but one of them now only like five of them came but they were all coloured belts and to a to a person uh they were kind of like I just missed coming in and talking about the footy for 20 minutes and we would do a couple of moves then I would go home like they were honest and I appreciate the honesty but those are the only ones that we've lost uh whenever we lose a member or whenever anyone goes on pause or quits there's always a conversation with them like what could we have done better? What did you and I I think the communication lines are open enough that they could be like look I just I just want to get my moves I just want to have my details I haven't had that except for those few people that left from that other gym so essentially zero and I think that's not necessarily because of how an amazing of a coach I am but like speaks more to like the culture in the room that they want to stay amongst that they've just been willing to go through the journey with me as a coach learning my way I'm decent now so it's okay but I I think it speaks more to that than anything else.
SPEAKER_01Hello Alex were there any was there anyone that you lost along the way or any conversations of like oh we missed the technique or oh we we miss like just some chill time to hang out or no I mean the transition transition was quite quite gradual over over one and a half years right so and people were happy to to to try it and to stick to the um journey with us.
SPEAKER_02So yeah the the only thing was before because um yeah before we s we were filming the techniques and put them internally on a like one of our guys did that um so that they could watch back and then he was like yeah but now that we are training that way that's actually makes no sense anymore so I'll just stop that um but uh yeah I don't think we lost anybody uh because of of CLA.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha. Yeah because I I one thing that's really interesting about what I've seen is so I I trained under Andris Brnofskis. Um I was training with Lee at Legion with him there and so he was teaching CLA in a gym where not a lot of people were and a lot of coaches really took a lot of different approaches some did some mix some didn't and it was just interesting to see the different kinds of people who gravitated towards the CLA versus those who like the traditional approach. And um it just made me think that like not everyone goes to jujitsu for the same reasons. Like some people you hear this term like the third space a lot like some people do want to just have a place outside of home and outside of work where they can hang out with with their friends and and get a little bit of sweat in other people really want to train and practice and like go to work. So yeah I was just like curious like where CLA may cater to one and not to the other how you make room for those people or is this gym just not for you?
SPEAKER_00Like yeah I don't know if there's a question in there but yeah there is a Josh I think there is a good question there and that's like something about me and my coaches have wrapped our heads uh our brains about sorry and to I have to make a correction we did lose one member recently uh she did this member did leave because she just felt like she wanted to do some drilling so it's like yeah we we have lost one of our existing members. I think in terms of that not everyone's there for the same reason and I think that is something that's very important as a coach and a gym owner to be very cognitant of um so what we've done we've got a lot of older members as well and then sometimes they don't want to come in and have to battle for an hour and like even like if they were taking it slow, some guys just want to come in and just see their mates and kind of keep it chill. But I think what we've implemented um is like one session a week we have like a self-directed session. So they come in they build their own games based on their own intentions that they should be taking notes on or whatnot. They build their own games and they so you've got you got a like an eight minute slice with the partner then we'll swap over you have a little bit of a time to debrief in between and then we'll do that a couple more times. And that just allows just enough freedom for them to be like just dial it back a little bit. I want to work in this space can I just like think about these things or figure these things out and then there's me and another one of my black belts we'll walk around and we'll just try try to like either build a game for them or give them some little cues or some solutions even sometimes just to kind of like if you want to dial it back we can give you a little bit of that too because like we don't want to that's a probably a little bit of a problem we had initially it was like it was just so intense like you're coming in you're fighting for an hour in all in like three different spaces you're gonna fight then we're gonna roll and then you're done you want to that is only available to a certain type of individual for a certain period of time and we want to make sure that we can catch as many people as we want so that self-directed night is valuable in that just it gives everyone an opportunity to to do the work but at their own kind of pace if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah that makes sense Alex do you guys do something similar or how do you handle that that challenge of some people want different things from going to a jiu-jitsu gym um like in general people who do not know um they didn't train before martial arts and stuff um they come in and then that's just how it is and I think they are they are cool with it um but sometimes when you get people who trained before you need to reframe what it is um sometimes um yeah or often like when there is something hey today I'm a bit tired today my knee hurts I have trouble with my elbow something like that um people come to us they tell us um either before training or when they realize oh with this game I I can't do that because um then we help them to find something else and also usually um they they find partners where they can work with the intensity that they need that day um so yeah the the that usually is like we have certain guys that when when they are in some guys just are like okay with with this guy I'm not gonna go because that's always balls to the walls and I don't need that um or we're like hey today uh when you go with him relax um and that usually usually works so we are very very much on individualizing the training for everybody who's there plus also giving the people the space to individualize their own training um yeah yeah and uh welcome um Mateo how do I pronounce it again your name hello guys I'm so sorry I thought it's uh uh 11 p.m pst because here it's 6 a.m so I was just yeah late to the party is it not too late for me to join?
SPEAKER_03No no of course not yeah we're happy you're here um I think give me two three minutes I will just uh turn on my PC and I'll be back I was just checking if it's not too late.
SPEAKER_01Oh no all good yeah thanks for coming uh Gino I really like the um bring your own games like one session per week I got to visit standard for a week and got to attend that for one of his sessions like that for the first time and it was super fun. And we're actually uh I I believe the coaches at Corvitz are thinking about implementing some of that as well. Any advice for implementing something like that? Like how do you set it up? How do you help people? Right now everyone's used to just showing up being told what the games are and now you're yeah putting the responsibility on them to be intentional themselves.
SPEAKER_00It's funny Josh because like for as much as I feel like as a coach I talk about being intentional when we when we first ran the first night of this uh so many people were like I don't know what I'm gonna work on like what do you what do I work on? I don't know. So we've had a few iterations but I think like our main intention was just to build intentionality in the learners so that they that exchange problem could keep getting solved like I was talking about before. And then it was like to just let everyone have the experience they kind of want to have but in a CLA based practice. What I would do is what we've done recently is we initially started with just like 10 minute slices where it was like just I'll give you three minutes to discuss with your partner, 10 minute round, then they'll talk for three minutes and their 10 minute round it's too much time. So what we've done now is we've reduced the amount of time to talk before their slice of 90 seconds and then the the general work time is six minutes and we've done it so there'll be two six minute rounds what one each for each person is standing then guarded them then pinning or submission so we're kind of constraining them a little bit just so it's easier for them. They don't have if you you're spoiled for choice you don't know where to start but if it's like just work in the standing position then they can start to like that intention can start to flow they can think objectively about their grappling that's the biggest thing that I think the more we do it the more momentum people will have like oh yeah I've been working on hand fighting now I'm gonna look at this it's just the getting started is hard because if people haven't been intentional if they don't know how to be intentional it's our responsibility to teach them how to be intentional. And that's probably the best way just like sending some guardrails for them to work in and then as we go maybe we can just open it up a little bit but that that's helped so far.
SPEAKER_01Wow I like that a lot it's like the constraint led approach way to teach the constraint led approach so you've have two games standing two games guarded two games pinning one each that they get to select.
SPEAKER_00Yep one each one each yep 90 seconds between quick chat about it um the 10 minute rounds too was like people were just like doing it but weren't wanting to talk about it they were wanting to chat it out so it's like all right you've got 90 seconds try to discuss your work at the end ready set go and then what me and my other black belts do we'll just walk around and if we can't look at them and be like I think John's working on this then we're like guys what are you working on and then we'll try to like help them build the game we'll design the game for them as they go on the fly it's been working pretty well what we've actually just a little tip what we're gonna try to implement this week is we were running a little six minute slice just to warm everyone up before we started. What we're gonna do this week we're gonna have just a six minute round so for the people who don't know what they're struggling with they can like call back to that one round like oh I had a hard time getting under elbows on the feet I might work on that for my stamping just so like just as an extra guard rail right just to help them with their thought process.
SPEAKER_01Wow that's super creative I like that a lot so they can face the problem immediately and then it that forces them to be intention like on the intentional way.
SPEAKER_02100% yeah 100% wow I like that a lot um definitely can't wait to pass that along to to our coaches um Alex do you guys uh do anything creative like that or interesting uh with how you structure their your classes uh we also have a a um class like that self-directed learning um but it's not that structured I'm definitely gonna try that um it's really cool um yeah what we noticed we used to have a high demand for open mats before we started CLA so there was a lot of like uh people I just want to roll and I need open mats and blah but at the moment CLA was really working that that disappeared people uh were like we're like hey we have an open mat nobody showing up um because they got their their work in um in the normal classes that was really um really interesting so that's why we at the moment don't have a regular open mat but we created the the self-directed class but that is is fairly new we only started that a couple weeks ago um and yeah it it's sometimes people come in with yeah I want to work on that um and sometimes it's like what you're not telling me what to do so uh yeah we are still um yeah still fixing that so I'm definitely gonna gonna uh apply Chino's ideas there I like it it's um it's actually funny that you say that Alex we um we've had to have a few of our sessions get made into open mats just because of coach sicknesses or people going away at last minute changes and we had a couple of members come up to us and be like can we just give you some feedback and we're like oh boy here we go uh they were like oh we just want to let you know like these sessions getting made into open mats like we would just really rather them not be made open mats we only get to come a couple of sessions we want to be able to come and do the practice and do the work kind of thing um so it's like it's a good sign right they actually want to come and do a practice that we've run whereas I remember when I was coming up it was like if you had a given me a choice I'll take open mat ten times out of ten. Every time every time I've also like when I when I'm traveling I'm only going to CL agents as much as possible. Okay I went in in London to London Drupal because uh I was really curious uh to meet uh Oh, what's his name? It will come back to me. But other than that, I'm like either going to a CLA class or I'm um I'm going to an open mat. I'm not like doing jumping checks and shrimping up and down a mat and then doing some repetitive movements, uh going through an hour of stuff just to finally roll when I'm actually cold again.
SPEAKER_01Um totally agree. And uh Mateush, did I pronounce your name correctly?
SPEAKER_03Oh guys, sorry for being late. I thought it's the same time as last time, and so yeah. No, no, no. Almost one hour late. Hopefully that's no, it's all good.
SPEAKER_01I actually think what happened, same thing happened in Gino because I think we have daylight savings here in the US and we're now across four time zones, and not all of us do daylight savings at the same time.
SPEAKER_03So I think it it's for me it was uh I mean it's almost 7 a.m.
SPEAKER_01So I was asleep and I woke up and I saw your message. I'm like, fuck, now it's me. Fuck that was. No, no, it's all good. I I think it's a calendar thing. It's there probably is a better solution out there for figuring out calendar stuff, but that's always the hardest part about this podcast episode. It's fine.
SPEAKER_03Uh I see I hear you guys start talking about open maths. And uh, for example, I have uh 3D new gym a little bit over a year, and uh I have a very similar experience, like uh Gino said, that um people don't at the beginning there was a lot of people on open maths, but now it's not that busy. They'd rather do a class that uh I'm teaching or anybody else. They like the structure more than the open mat, which is like like Gino said, I think it's really good uh thing. And another thing about traveling or going anywhere, I for me is the same. Like uh I want to go to CLAJs or just sparring because just doing the all the shrimping and warm-up and the technique presentation is too much, especially if you're on holidays or something, you just want to have fun, not to suffer, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, how many open round like open rounds do you guys include in your classes? That that was feedback that we were getting for a while. Like I remember telling Andres I was like, I think it's I did like a couple rounds in the last week, like multiple weeks. I've only done a few full rounds. Everything was like CLA. And then um, so yeah, I think he's been experimenting with like doing two rounds, maybe three sometimes. So, how do you guys fit in open rounds uh with your with your classes?
SPEAKER_03So I I can maybe go first because I was late. So I basically follow the same uh framework and the structure that Greg does. So Monday to Thursday, we have all levels, uh fundamentals and all levels. And usually uh fundamentals, I have only one open round. But what I do now, if the next all-level class is not that busy, if there is some space, I encourage people to stay and do some open rounds on their own time. So I everybody will do one round uh for sure, Monday to Thursday. Some people will stay and do double class, or some people will stay and do two, three, four rounds. So there is at least one. At the all levels class, I I have it one hour and 15 minutes, so it's a little bit longer, and I usually have uh like three rounds of five, I don't know, two rounds of six, two rounds of eight. Depends however what uh how much time we have left. So it's usually around 10 to 15 minutes of like around 15 minutes, I would say, live rounds at all levels class. And then Friday and Saturday, I just Saturday it's open math, so people just usually roll. Friday I have one class, just all levels, and it's an hour and a half. So the idea is to give people more sparring time. Uh, because it's a new gym. If I just say sparring for two hours or open math, people are afraid. I'm like, oh my god, this training is so long and sparring, you don't know what to do. So we usually do like 30 minutes of gangs, and then the last hour it's uh sparring. So I really like the I obviously took it from Greg that Monday to Thursday it's skill development, and then Friday Saturday, it's for open rounds. And same as for the for my comp classes is very similar. Monday to Thursday, I have one or two open rounds. Usually one like in a plan, and then people want to do more, they do more. And then Friday we just have sparring session. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01Alex, hello for you.
SPEAKER_02Um usually we have uh 90-minute classes and we do about an hour of uh skill acquisition and then half an hour of sparring. Um when I realize people are rather tired or they are really engaged with the um the topic, uh then I sometimes do another uh round or two of uh of tasks and then sparring. Um yeah. And then of course uh with the half an hour sparring, it depends how um yeah, how long they really want to go. If they want to take a break, they can take a break. But actually most people train through. I think the open open rounds are important because I think the um the difference between a uh beginner and an experienced player is like can they keep their intention over the whole round and can they adapt their focus to what they need uh to adapt it to and how well can they hold that intention and focus when the situation changes and stuff. Um and since we in the open rounds we don't give that, um it's very interesting to to see how that fluctuates and um yeah. So that also gives us feedback about what are their attractive values, where do they like to go, what do they like to do? Um where are they maybe still uh lacking, where do you think need need more exposure to. Um so yeah, the open rounds are are good for feedback for us as coaches, but also for for the people to actually practice their focus. And then Gino Hover for you.
SPEAKER_00Uh if it's so if it's like a morning or a lunch session, uh those are just strictly one hour sessions. So we'll do 45 minutes of s of work, and then we'll leave the last 15 minutes for like three-ish rounds. Um and then of a nighttime practice, it's always it's just always one hour, 60 minutes of solid work, and then we'll always put 10 rounds on the clock. Uh, they could be four or five or six minute rounds, depending on uh if we have events coming up or the fatigue levels in the room, but there's no expectation on people to stay for 10 rounds. Some people do, but most people get like two or three in. Uh, and it's just it's an important thing for as a coach, you want to see them playing the whole game, not just the little slices that we create. Uh, and it's also a good opportunity to sometimes like a newer player, they they need to be able to see where all the pieces of the puzzle fit. We've just looked at a few little slices of the game, but for them to see where that might fit in the whole game is very important. Um, and then yeah, like similar to what Alex was saying, holding intentions and similar and similar things as well, it's very important. So um, yeah, we've got a couple of days where there's open mats as well and whatnot too, but yeah, that's how many we run.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I felt like there was that period where I was just doing like all games almost and like barely any rounds, and then I would show up for an open mat and the rounds I had no idea how to pace myself. Like I think I just kept trying to get the small, like progress, progress, progress, and I would be doing things urgently all the time when I didn't have to be so urgent all the time. It was just like a weird yeah, weird shift, I guess.
SPEAKER_03I think you if if you are if you are just doing CLA rounds, and let's say for a month and you're not doing open rounds at all, when you go back to open rocks, you might have a bit of trouble to adapt, you know, because you're usually used to like, oh, I get on top and I win and we stop, or I get this and I win. And I when I started doing CLA, I think I think for a month or maybe more, I was just doing CLA rounds. And when I went to Spar, it was it was a bit strange. Like uh, you know, I was not that used to it as I as I was before. So I think they are important, but I I don't know. I think 20% of open rounds during the week is for sure enough. For some people, even 10 if you're more uh if you're more beginner. And uh yeah. So like like the guy said as well, you get a feedback. If you watch them as a coach, you get a feedback what they are lacking, what they need to work on, and that's really really important. And some people, what I realize, some people are really good with games that are way more constrained. They will they can train for a year, but they can be the guy that trains for seven years in that game because they are really good in the games that are more constrained. Then some people, if you constrain them more, they just don't do well in the games, they like more open games. And there then are the guys that are the best at open rounds. So there is a all types of students, at least that's what I'm seeing. Did you see? And it's important to have all this uh kind of games so all of them can thrive.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh I've gotten lucky to to substitute for like I think five or six CLA sessions, and I basically just copied Greg's games and and did them. I think one of the biggest questions I had is like, who do you pay attention to in the room? Like, there's so many pairs going on. And so I tried like paying attention to one, but then I was like, oh, what about like am I missing, am I am I catching everything? Then I started scanning, and I was like, I'm not sure if I'm really learning anything by just scanning quickly. How do you guys uh get better at paying attention to the room? By just paying attention to the room. The whole room? Like, like yeah, I don't I guess it was so overwhelming for me. I was like, oh my gosh, there's like so much going on.
SPEAKER_02I I think that um that takes practice, but at one point you see like okay, they are a bit in a stallmate, they are fighting for this or that, but there won't happen much movement. So with the next one, they are in a in a scramble, they are looking for these things. So and then sometimes you get really interesting um exchanges, and then I focus on those, but usually you can relatively quickly understand what they are doing, uh where they are at. So I think uh when you when you do it more, you get better at at scanning and seeing what they are working on, what their intention is, uh what their focus is, um and then you you pick up on the sometimes after class it's very hard for me to tell this person did that, this person did that. Um for every single one. I have a few where I know, uh, but for every single one it's often hard, but I know where the class generally uh went to. Like I pick up on the on the big picture uh very quickly. And then uh um yeah, I usually focus on the people where where the exchanges are really, really interesting. Um and that changes um every class. I try to divide it also equally, my attention equally. Which um yeah, I think it's it's like practicing um and yeah, intention to pick up on what the whole class is doing, and then yeah, just thinking after what's like what was the general picture where where did they go to? Uh what needs maybe improvement, where do they need more exposure? Um, and then thinking, okay, who who was all there and for whom do I can I say exactly what they what they did, and that gets better over time.
SPEAKER_00Um I I agree with Alex, it does take practice, Josh, 100%. I think for me, I know Greg, he sits, like you'll sit against the wall and just watch. I can't I can't do that. I have too much ADHD to sit still for that period of time. But also what I've found, if I ever sit or stand still, I get my eyes get drawn to the same pairings quite often. So I'll get drawn like if it's like certain competitors that we have in the room or certain guys that I use to like build data for the room, I'll kind of get stuck watching them. So I just force myself to just keep I force myself to mostly keep walking through the room. So I'll just keep walking around, keep walking around, and that kind of just forces me to look at each individual pairing. I just find if I stay stagnant or sit, I don't know how Greg does it and keeps such a good eye. It's practice, obviously. But when I sit, I just get stuck looking at the same pairings all the time because like I watch a little exchange and then it's like, well, what's gonna happen the rest of the exchange? Oh, oh, that's crazy. I guess Ellie's doing that, and then I've missed like all the work throughout the room. For us, it's like we can have you know 40, 45 on a mat for an all-level session. So I'm fortunate to have uh other black belts in the room, and we will kind of just all both walk around, depending how many of us are doing that, and then kind of just meet up halfway through a slice, like, oh, do you notice that? What are they looking like? And then continue doing the rounds if that makes sense, just to get as many eyeballs on engagements as possible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, makes sense.
SPEAKER_03I I agree uh with the with the guys as well that it takes uh a lot of practice. When I started coaching with CLA, it was so chaotic. I was just looking at the room like this, I was what's going on, you know. I was trying to make sure that everybody's staying on the task. But now when when you have a group that they already know how to train uh with uh with CLA, how to stay focused on the task, it's much, much easier. For me, so I I have a really tiny gym. I get maybe eight to sixteen people in a class maximum. And uh I usually try to you got a bit of bias to just look at the guys that are usually there, the competitors or the most uh the guys that are most frequent. But I'm also trying, I have like two spots in a gym where I sit, and one spot lets me see like one side, one lets me focus more on one side of the room and then the other spot on the other side. So I'm trying to like change them and also when we are deep into some topic like second and third week or end of even end of any week, I'm trying to uh look more a bit at people that are new or or have a break or yeah, just new to the to the topic, especially at the basic class. I I always tell the more advanced guys that at the basic class I'm focusing on the the lowest level, like the first timers, the people that are just starting, and then the and the the more advanced guys they can handle handle themselves. And at all levels class, I'm always gathering my attention to the more advanced uh guys or the ones that are uh competing. So yeah, it's it's practice and like finding how you like to do it, and uh making sure that if people are improving, it means that you're giving them enough attention. But it's like I guess I don't know, I don't have kids, but I guess it's the same. You have 10 kids, you cannot give them all of them the same attention all the time. So, same as with students, and if you have 40 of them in the room, that's even worse. So somebody someday can feel like, oh, the coach wasn't looking at my work today, or he didn't give me any tips, but just be patient, maybe your time will be tomorrow.
SPEAKER_02I also think uh when you because you said copying games, I find it sometimes harder to um when you copy games because there is no you first need to look what's happening to understand what you're actually looking for, apart from before you copy the game, you really deeply thought about why did the person I'm copying it uh from design it that way and what behaviors did they want to see. I know that Greg usually specifies that, um but uh it's still you need to think about okay, but how does that look like? Whilst when you design your own game, uh you know what behavior do you want to address? What do you want to take away? What solutions do you want to take away and why? So does the constraint you set work for that? Um what behavior did you want them to do? Does that show up? Can you actually see that? Um so I think designing your own games helps to understand what is happening. Uh so I think it's actually when you preload the work, uh you do prepare your games, you think about the games, you create your own games and then you watch, you uh it's easier to watch because you have a better idea what you're what you're um doing, and then also it becomes easier to what do we play next? Because um sometimes the next game that the person designed uh you copy from won't match your room. Um sometimes you need a step in between or you need some something completely else, or so um yeah, I think that's that's where where the magic happens is when you decide um design your own own games.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I agree with uh I agree with Alex about that, that copying games can can feel like that sometimes, but also when you're starting with CLA, I think it's good to actually copy games just to see what uh people are doing and what effect this can have on your room and how does it even work. Uh but like Alex said, if you create your own games, you have better understanding what you want to see from your people in training. So you can see that instantly. Sometimes if you just give them a game that you saw, you're looking at them playing and like, okay, what are they actually doing? So it's not, I don't think it's wrong, because it's trial and error, but it might take you a little bit longer to have uh to like to see what the game actually gets out of them, you know, and and also in uh if you if you do it for longer, you create a lot of uh your games at some point and you're successful with them because it's not always the case, like with everything, uh then if you cop if you in future will copy a game from somebody or you will see that game online, you can understand faster what uh the intention behind the game is. So, for example, in my case now, I'm obviously like probably you guys too, I'm using a lot of the games that uh Greg posts uh on school. Uh but when I look at these games, I understand uh why he designed them like that. Probably not all of them, but most of it I am I understand and I know how to fit it in my room and and I watch my room doing it, and I'm adjusting based on that. At the beginning, you know, it's it's it's way more difficult. But like everything, right? If you start jujitsu first day, it's not easy and you don't know everything, you don't know everything. Same with with the games, uh with uh teaching with uh CLA and playing the games. So I I don't think it's wrong with copying them, but the more games you create yourself and you are successful with them, the easier for you will be to understand uh if you take the games from somebody and also to to see uh sorry, not to see, like to yeah, to when you s to see your room, uh if they are actually doing the what you wanted from them, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think it all kind of goes back to intention, like what's the intention of the game? Because if you just copy paste the game, it's like you might as well, it's almost like the technique thing over again. You're just gonna be looking for like this very uh rigid thing in the game versus what's the whole point of the game, what what what are you getting after, I guess. Um so yeah, no wonder I was so frazzled the first time. I just literally copied the games and then I'm just I don't even know what I'm looking for. I'm just just scanning the room, hopefully seeing grappling happening. But uh that's um yeah. I know we've uh been on for about an hour. I did want to talk a little bit about how each of you use Greg's school account. That's how we all met through the school program. And um yeah, how do each of you use it and uh what what is like the main thing you get from the school group?
SPEAKER_00Um I I mostly use it just to like it's cool to be able to see Greg. Seminars. It's cool to like be able to discuss your work with other people who are like-minded and have experience or are experiencing similar things. And then it just I like being able to view that stuff. Just like gives you ideas, like different game formats or ideas of where to go, or how I could maybe potentially, if I'm looking to work in an area, it's very helpful to be able to have that resource there. Just to, oh, this is something that they give that that person's done to like work in this area. For example, the Kimura stuff that uh Coach Greg was doing with um the beginners. Um I ripped that and that just the way that starting position and the the cue of either put the hand behind the back or on the floor. Uh we've run Kimura stuff a bunch of times, and I remember I actually thought I had discovered the invariants of a Kimura, and I was like, I think I've done it, guys. I think I've I hadn't, but it was just like in my own personal journey, but then getting to see another perspective and another way that you can set people up. It's very, very valuable, very valuable.
SPEAKER_02Alex, how for you? How do you use it? Similarly, like it's uh cool to connect, and it's also yeah, how does Greg think about grappling? What's like what he has his framework, but what does that mean for different um positions? What constraints does he use and and why? So just to widen the um the things we do, do fifths um different things, think differently about certain exchanges, um to not get uh yeah tunneled in into what we've always done, but keep an open mind, see other other things, other coaches, um, other ideas. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, for the same same for me. I'm basically doing the basic program that's that he's uh posting, almost one-to-one, because I want to see what kind of results I will I will get, and I think it's very, very well designed. So obviously it's sometimes I'll change the game a little bit or give a bit different focus of of intention, but the games are basically using one-to-one. All levels class, I'm adapting them a little bit more uh to the room because he always posts like one all-level class for each month. So I'm always trying to do what he does with the basics to progress something each week. So I can add a little bit uh different tasks, different focus, on and I'm trying it to make it from this really constrained games, even in all-levels class, from scaled but constraints from week one to more open games at week uh four. So I'm challenging the skill of the people in that area even more as we get closer to the end of the topic. So obviously, the seminars are amazing, the possibility to communicate with like-minded people that are doing the same uh thing. And even for me, I'm still competing. So to be able to send matches to Greg or Rod and get them analyzed, like even my last match, and I'm already working the things they they showed me, they showed me, and it's been great. So I just in my country, I think I'm the only gym that is fully CLA even with MMA and kickboxing, and I don't really have anybody to to learn from. So yeah, this group is just uh a learning experience for me. And you know, I like I like to have somebody above me that has like as everybody should, like, that has more knowledge and uh can help you with something. And I feel everywhere I go in in Poland to train or to teach, I'm that person, and everybody just wants me to teach the class or asks me questions, but I don't have anybody to do that. So that group is is is amazing for that. And yeah, sometimes if I just lack ideas, it's like encyclopedia. Well, you can if you don't have anything there, you can just message Greg and he will give it to you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I really like using the search on there. Like I was just curious about hand fighting, a type of hand fighting, and it's like all these different games pop up and different ideas. Um yeah, I know we're we're almost at an hour and a half. Maybe we can wrap up with one last question of for people listening, let's say they're maybe a year or six months into their CLA coaching journey. Uh what advice would you give for them, these white belts starting out, like these white belt CLA coaches uh starting out? Gino, maybe we can start with you and go in a circle to wrap up.
SPEAKER_00Man, that's uh I could talk for a while about that, hey. Um I think the biggest uh man, that's a big question, Josh.
SPEAKER_01Oh um or what advice would you have given yourself, maybe, if you can go back in time when you first started?
SPEAKER_00Uh stop overthinking it. Just just go with it. Yeah, just you're not gonna break anyone, you're not gonna break their grappling journey, just just put it out there. Uh I think generally, I'd my biggest piece of advice would be um just start designing. Just put a game together and put it out there and then build that habit. I think that's like a muscle that you have to grow. It's a habit and it's a skill that you have to grow. Like we're asking our athletes to to work on skills and particular skills, and they're designing a practice, like watching what is going on in the room, reading the the uh the theory, and then putting all those things together into a practice, that is a skill that you have to work on. Um, so that would be my thing. Just just do it, just fucking do it. That's all you have to do, just do it.
SPEAKER_02Alex, have it for you. Um it's hard to say uh when it's what they're doing for a year. Uh some haven't read anything uh um still, so for them I would be grab a book. At least uh the Rob Grey ones are quite accessible. Um understand the the terminology and understand the the uh science behind it. Um if you don't understand the science, ask somebody to help you and then yes, like Gino, put it into practice. Um like CLA, you learn CLA by doing CLA. Constrain yourself to do some um teach something or or get them to to do certain behaviors, see whether you can do that, if not, uh try it again. Uh if yes, go for the next behavior and uh find people, uh like-minded people that that help you. Um because it becomes a lot easier when you can uh discuss uh what you see. Um also um I think the the single biggest thing is time yourself, film yourself, time yourself, uh time how much uh time there is for actual practice uh because the ratio should be good. I've seen uh coaches talking more than actual practice. Um and then that doesn't fit with with um what we are trying to do. So yeah, I think the the best way forward, film yourself, film your classes, um review it, or have someone else help you review it. Yeah. Beautiful.
SPEAKER_03And then um Yeah, and my my initial thought was uh also like uh Gino said to design uh games. You need to do it when you're at the at the beginning, even if you have the access to school group, use the games or you can copy one-to-one the basic class, but you need to have a class when you design your own class and you see if that works. Uh because, for example, in my case now I've been doing this for like three years, and if I didn't spend two and a half or more basically designing my own games, I wouldn't have the understanding how to use the school group. Because you can join it with zero knowledge about CLA, and you might we when we might use the same uh games classes and all and everything that is there, but you might not have the same results because you don't understand how it works, why it works. Another thing, obviously, lead read some lead uh some books, like how we learn to move. I'm not a big reader, but I learned I read how we learned to move maybe first month or two, and it really opened my eyes because I think it's the base of uh helping you to understand that. Even the first few pages for me were like, okay, now that's amazing. Like I it change change uh changes how you uh you see that. Uh another thing for me is what I struggled at the beginning is be patient with people because when you come from a traditional background, teaching techniques, trying to correct people, put put them in perfect uh positions, you might set the round and go around for the whole round and tell people, okay, do this, do this, do that, focus on this, focus on that. Just leave them, just leave them and accept that if you start a new topic first week or first class for first two classes for everybody, it will be chaotic. The most important is that they that you see them trying to do what you want them to do through the game. So yeah, have patience with people, have patience with yourself as well. Keep and uh yeah, I guess, I guess that's the most important uh thing. So do it, create your own games, watch them, analyze if uh if people are doing what you want from them and have patience with them. Constrain yourself actually to don't say and don't say anything for six minutes, just watch them do it, okay, and then talk to them. Okay, so you can do this next game, okay. You can do that, that was good, that was not good. Let them play again and see if your words have uh uh if if your words you know have like uh meaning for them if they change if they change it, because it's also a skill, the way you the way you speak, that's uh that's also very important.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Yeah, thank you guys so much for for taking the time um for this round two of uh for part two really of this panel. Um and uh yeah, I appreciate it. And uh yeah, we'll link all the your guys' info in the description if anyone wants to reach out or or to connect. And uh yeah, thank you guys all for joining today. Thanks, Josh.
SPEAKER_03Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Hopefully we can do part three and everybody will be on time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you guys are all all welcome to come back anytime individually or groups or we can switch up pairs or whatever. Um yeah, it's fun to fun to connect. This is such a small niche out there, so it's really fun to get everyone in the in the group together. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03We'd like to do it again for sure. I don't know how how how late I was, but yeah, hopefully we can do it again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it sounds good. Thanks, Josh.
