#189 The Leading Edge and Half Guard Passing

In this episode Jake and I talk about the leading edge as it relates to half guard passing. Hope you enjoy!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Hello? What's up, Jake?

SPEAKER_03 0:12

What's up, Josh?

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Couple weeks back into training. Uh what what have you been thinking about or working on, maybe?

SPEAKER_03 0:19

Um, I've been working on so I I think we discussed this a little bit um a couple episodes ago, but like just thinking about the like beating people's frames a bit more, um, talking about it from standing position. We talked about it in terms of a Russian arm. And then recently I've been focused on it when guard passing, specifically against a knee shield. Um, so yeah, that's kind of been my my focus for the past week or so. Um taught it a couple times, actually just made a video on it. Um, so yeah, that'll be coming out shortly.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Awesome. Yeah, we can review some of that. Um, I think a few weeks ago um we talked about it, if I remember correctly, a lot from the bottom perspective, like getting under hooks or getting outside the elbows to get back exposure from a half card. Um, but yeah, curious about your thoughts for the top person getting through that frame, that annoying, super annoying knee shield.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

Yeah. Um, do you remember that video Greg posted about uh like pinning arms when you're trying to pass? And then he made games out of it. So I was like trying to pay attention to this type of thing a lot when I've been watching footage for the past since that video came out, basically. Um and like one thing I I've noticed, like or at least like have have tried to pick up on, is like generally when you're in half guard, you're gonna have like one leg that's free and one leg that's not free. So let's say your right leg is trapped, you know. Um if you decide to lead with the left side of your body, so like you um kind of bring your left shoulder forward and your right shoulder back, generally you're looking to like split their legs apart and work towards a chest-to-chest uh type position. If you turn your hips the other way and you lead with the trap side of your body, so in this case, our right side, you're generally going to try and like smash their legs together. And the times where I've seen people split the legs apart from leading with the trap side of their body has been when they have like some sort of forearm forearm frame in the hip. So the knee shield is basically like not there at all. And then you like drive your, you know, trap side down and then you get to chest to chest. Or you threaten to smash the legs first and they straighten their leg to prevent it from being smashed, you end up in chest to chest. So, like if you have the forearm frame, you can, you know, split their legs apart um by leading with the trap side of your body. But generally the initial attack is trying to smash their legs together. And then that can lead to you ending up in chest to chest. But um, yeah, like that's that's the idea. And I think this is how I was traditionally looking at it. But then, like, the thing Joseph made very popular was the idea of leading with the free side of your body, so the left side in this case, and then getting your knee like over their knee shield leg, and then smashing their legs together. So basically, the cool thing about this is it gives you the ability to split or smash the legs when you're leading with the like uh free side of your body, right? But the problem with this is when you lead with the left side, you get your knee over their knee shield. You can go like switch sides to go into like outside passing, or you can smash your legs together. But typically when you're doing either one of these, I think outside passing might be easiest to like visualize it. But when you're ready to switch sides and go into outside passing, your leading edge switches from your uh like left shoulder. And then when you switch sides, now you're leading with your right shoulder. Does that make sense? So the some of the clips I've watched of people like retaining guard against this type of passing have been like maybe they're in half guard and they're not framing on the left shoulder. They're framing on like the right shoulder. They have like a collar tie or something like this. So their frame or connection is on the right shoulder, which is not the leading edge. But then when you get your knee over their shin and you switch sides, now you're switching your leading edge like right into where they're framing, and then they're able to retain their grip.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

So the idea of like specifically the cross grip on their like top arm means that basically now you have the ability to switch your leading edge at will to deal with their lower body frames. So like DeAndre is the person who like I think uses this a lot, and who I saw use it, and I'm like, yeah, this makes a lot of sense to me. But the idea is like traditionally DeAndre will start with a cross grip and then like a like a V grip on the ankle of the knee shield leg, and then he'll lead with his left side of his body. And from here, he'll try to get his knee out to get over the uh like knee shield leg. And then if he can do this, he'll smash the legs together. Um, and he'll be able to switch his leading edge and to smash the legs together because he has that cross grip and they can't frame on what's gonna be his new leading edge. If he can't get his knee free, then he takes his chest and he puts it over the knee, and then he'll take his V grip on the ankle and switch it to a tight waist, and then he can again switch his leading edge, and then he'll smash the legs together. Um, so this little combo has been very helpful. And I think there are a couple pieces of resistance that um I was experiencing when I was trying to do it, and then um I kind of watched how DeAndre was dealing with them, and I I've found them to be very helpful. But I would say that's the basic idea I've been thinking about, where like there are some examples where like when you pin the wrist to the mat, they can still frame with their top arm. So, like, for example, um, there's one example where like this guy pins the wrist to the mat and then he starts flattening the hips from half guard, and the guy is framing on the like free shoulder. And the guy like wants to lead with that shoulder, but the frame is stopping him from doing so. So then he uses his other hand to go out and threaten an inside bicep tie. And then that causes the person to take out their frame from the free side, and then they repost on the other side of his body. And then he does a hip switch and like really leads with his shoulder, which is now not framed upon. So, like there are definitely other ways to go about it. Like you can just use a route drag to like get rid of their frame. Um, but if your free, if your hand is like pinning their wrist, you can use your other hand to like say, like, just don't frame on this side of my body. Like you can frame wherever you want on this side, just not on this side, you know, because that's the side I want to lead with. Um, so just thinking of more about like controlling their arms in a way where it like eliminates their ability to frame, which is that cross grip, which I think is like the preferred one for that reason, um, because you can change your leading edge basically however you see fit. And then if they are framing, it limits your ability to switch your leading edge. So you can just switch your leading edge to get rid of the frame, or you can grip fight in a way which forces them to reallocate their frames away from the side you want to lead to. So it just gives like, I think, very clear goals as far as like, what am I trying to do when grip fighting? I'm trying to like free up this side of my body so I can lead with this side of my body, you know.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

Whoa, dude, that that's awesome. I uh it's so funny because you know, when we were texting back and forth, you're like, yeah, we we talked about half card before. And then now I hear you talking like either I completely forgot a lot of this stuff, or it's just like a more nuanced or a different lens to look at it. Because I realized, you know, pinning the wrist to the body or to the ground, like from top passing. Uh, I saw Greg do that a lot in as a task in the games, but I just did it as a task. I didn't really think about what it was allowing you to do from there. Uh and you're making me realize like a huge just prevention of them to be able to frame, especially when you do that top arm. And then you having me think about um how Joseph would like switch his angle about which edge is leading and to get to get rid of frames. So I was kind of just spamming all these things, but not sure why I was doing it or or what it then quote unquote forwards or whatever for the dealing with the lower body. I was just stuck there, constantly dealing with the upper body, shifting around trying to beat these frames, but not knowing what to do from there. So that's interesting. So um it's I guess is it true that um frames are most effective when they're against the leading edge?

SPEAKER_03 9:19

Correct. Yeah, that's the that's the idea.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Yeah, yeah. So you can either prevent them to do it if if they have access to leading edge, or just change it, and then now the equation shifts and you can go deal with something else. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 9:34

Wow. Um and like I I think it is a little bit counterintuitive because like normally when you teach half-guard passing, you're taught to like lead with the trapped side of your body in the sense that like your free foot is on the mat and your trap knee is like coming forward. Um and at least what I found is like there are definitely good things you can do, especially even if you get the cross grip, you can still lead with the trap side of your body. But these tend to involve like flattening their hips type of thing, um, and then trying to like clear their their knee shield. Whereas when you do the cross grip and you switch your your posture and you lead with the free side of your body, I think it just gives you way more options, especially since you control their frame, their primary frame at least. And uh yeah, you can just like switch your leading edge as you as you see fit. Yeah. And yeah, I I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

That's cool. I I wanted to ask a follow-up on the maybe it's a little technical or a little detail, but the uh your trapped leg, like in half card, let's say like you step forward with your right leg, that's your trapped side. When you were saying you use your knee to beat their knee shield, are you kind of extracting your knee out, pummeling your knee out, and then smashing their leg down with yours? Almost like a knee slice across both their legs.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Oh, it is. Okay, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

Yeah. A lot of times it involves you like straightening your leg and kind of like moving a bit away from them as you're pushing their knee shield like down.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Right, right, right. And then with if you do, if you do get outside, then you can pin both their legs to the ground and you have your your in step, I guess, hooked on the top of their leg and just kind of stapled there in a way.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

Yeah. Yeah. I could I could show you. Okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

And for listeners, those don't be much better.

SPEAKER_03 11:31

Yeah. So let's see. I just made my uh my video, so I'm just gonna I sent a request. Oh yeah. All right, let's see if this makes sense. So this is just like me rolling. Um, so yeah, like uh basically um this is how I was getting into it quite a bit. So like you do like a traditional like inside camping type of thing. And then I've found that if you can get your shoulder like outside their elbow, this is something I was thinking a lot about after doing the Russian arm thing where we were talking about like when they take a collar tie. If you can get your shoulder on top of their wrist, it really helps you like clear it. Um, so I was thinking a lot about like this shoulder position, and you'll see here, I'm gonna mute this so I don't hear myself talk. But uh you'll see here I'm able to get my shoulder like outside of his elbow. Yeah. And then you kind of like exaggerate the leading edge of your uh trap side, and then this exposes the wrist on the other side. So then um, as this plays, you can see I take the cross grip and then switch into this type of posture. Yeah, and then his legs are like really locked from here. So I'm like trying to pull my leg out, but it's not like coming out. I can't get my knee over his knee shield. But this is that DeAndre thing. So now I just bring my chest over his knee and then my hand comes from his ankle to a tight waist, and now it's his legs together.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Yeah. Right. Oh, dude, that's so nice. Um Wow, what a cool interplay between the leading edge of your shoulders versus the leading edge of your hips and like your shoulders dealing with their arms and then your hips dealing with their knees. Like, dude, that's right. It's very nice.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

Yeah. So this has been helpful. Um, this is like outside camping. So, like, this has been another like when you're doing outside camping and they trap your leg into half guard. I was trying, I've I've been working on my over-underpassing a bit. So I was trying to do uh like over-under passing here.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Um, but you could see his knee kind of like comes in like underneath my arm. So kind of shuts down my over-underpassing. But then I immediately look for the grip on his ankle and then the cross grip. And then I'm able to get my knee over his knee shield leg, and then you can smash it down. And then, like the other thing, like you know how it's often taught to like keep their feet off the off the mat. What I found when I do this is their other foot right here is still in half guard. So when you do smash their legs together, I've been focused on like almost turking their other leg. So you basically, yeah, like turk their other leg, um and then work to uh wow to pass. So yeah, that's been uh pretty helpful, I think. And then I would say the other thing that's been helpful for me is when let me just mute all these. When um, like I was trying to do this to Mike, you can see his legs like get a bit loose, if that makes sense. Um, so when this type of thing happens and I feel like I can't really stuff his foot, or if I do stuff it, his knee is gonna be framing on the other side of my body where I'm gonna switch my leading edge so it won't be as effective. So when this is the case, what I've tended to try and do is try and focus on like getting my head and shoulder like inside of his knee, and then go into either like over-underpassing, or you can like pummel your hand inside of his hip and then switch your leading edge to your other side and then work towards chest to chest.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

And then you'll see as he brings his knee down to prevent that, then we just do the other DeAndre thing. So my chest goes on top of his knee, switch to a tight waist, work to smash his legs together.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 15:30

But yeah, this this posture with the cross grip, I found it's very hard for them to deal with you changing your your leading edge. Yeah. And then either smashing legs together or getting like your head and shoulder inside their their knee shield leg. Right. Um, there's just so many options you have. It's just it's just hard for them to stop.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Dang. Dude, whoa. So sorry, would you say half-guard top's better than half guard bottom?

SPEAKER_03 15:56

Yeah. Yeah. I've I mean, recently I've been loving passing um from half-guard. Yeah. And just like trying to make them not get to key master. Right. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Uh when you get to that position where you have that cross grip and you know you you're switching hips uh so your free side is facing them. Do you ever stand up and try back uh high stepping and changing to that kind of passing?

SPEAKER_03 16:19

Yeah. So this is um the resistance. So, like what you're talking about is basically this right here, right? So you get into this type of posture and then you like high step out and you go into outside passing. So I found this to be a very good counter to when they take a scoop grip on your lead leg. I see. So that like when you're here, they don't really have much else to do with this arm other than scoop grip the leg. I've I've tried to think of other things, and I can show you what I've been doing when people have been doing it to me. Um, but yeah, that I think is a good reaction to counter that grip. So you'll see here DeAndre has cross grip on the wrist, grip on the ankle, and then this guy has a scoop grip. And I basically think the two forms of resistance you're gonna get this scoop grip, pretty common, and then them trying to rip their cross their hand away from your cross grip. So basically, when they rip their hand away, DeAndre will try to uh like shoot in this reverse underhook here, and then he basically turns his hips even more to kind of like smash that that scoop. And then he plays from from here to to eventually pass. Um, and then this is like a more dynamic example, but you'll see you get here, looking for the cross grip, gets the cross grip, and then this guy scoops his leg. So then he high steps out, and then now he's working to defend the like follow-up leg lock entry, you know, right. Um, but yeah, I think against good people, uh you just have to be ready to defend the the leg entry once you pummel your your foot out. So um obviously DeAndre used it to pass, but this is how it's kind of like the indicator I'm looking for is them like trying to scoop my leg. Then I think it's a good opportunity to go into more like outside passing.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Yeah. Dang, that's very nice. Um Wow, okay. Yeah, I it's funny. It's just funny how I've been so focused on uh wrist pinning to the body or to the floor, uh or changing the angle of my shoulders, but just not knowing why. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

So like with the wrist pin type thing to the to the mat or to their body with their other arm, like not the top arm, but their bottom arm. Now I think uh like they're gonna probably be pushing on you with their other hand. So now it's just a matter of like, yeah, if I want to lead with this side of my body, I need to make sure they can't push on this side. So maybe your grip fighting with your other hand is gonna try to free up this side of your body.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

Um, and like a lot of times you'll see like the classic example of this is like maybe the bottom player from half guard takes an underhook, and your response is to flatten them out, right? And try and get like chest to chest so they can't use their their underhook. And to do that, you lead with the free side of your body. So, like uh, I guess basically what I'm trying to say is like it just it just made total sense to me. It's like it's gonna be easy to flatten them out or easier to flatten them out because they're using an underhook and your that side of your body is completely free. So you can use it as much as you would like as your leading edge. Um, so yeah, like uh just another thing I've been um I'll just show show an example. But yeah, this is a good one. So like here, wrist pin, and then this person goes underhook, but he she has nothing, you know, stopping that that leading edge. And then here again, wrist pin, underhook, and then the wrist pin turns into a near side underhook. And then this can also lead nicely to like uh when they pummel in a butterfly hook, now you go into your like long-range tripod passing that Joseph likes to do. Yeah. Um, but yeah, that's kind of the the basic thing I've been I've been thinking about.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Dude, it's so subtle to to switch the the hips. Like, yeah, it's like I I guess like it feels more obvious when you're doing it, but when you're watching it, it's like, oh man, it's a subtle switch of the hips.

SPEAKER_03 20:25

Um this is the hip switch one I was talking about. So knee shield, he pins the wrist right here, and then this dude's framing on the free side shoulder. So then he like threatens an inside bicep tie to remove that frame, and now it's over here. And then now he says, Cool, now this shoulder is free. So I'm gonna drop that shoulder to go into my hip switch. You know, cool. So yeah, it's very slick.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Wow, interesting. Yeah, now the shoulder's free. Yeah. Okay. Well, so I guess if there's one big takeaway for me, it's like if they have their frames on your leading edge, it's like that's very strong for them.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Yeah, take it away or prevent it, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Um, or switch your switch your leading edge. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Very nice. Very nice. Um cool. Yeah, anything else?

SPEAKER_03 21:22

Uh not that I can not that I can think of. Yeah. Um I could show you, I guess, if you're interested, how I've been thinking about defending it, because obviously people are doing it on me, not just like doing it on everyone else during practice. But like, just as a general idea, when someone takes a cross grip, they're bringing their arm across their own center. And like, in like if I'm going to take a cross grip on your wrist, I bring my arm across. So I'm exposing this side of my body to be attacked. Um, I see this a lot when I'm watching. Wrestling as a way to counter cross grip. So that's all I was really thinking about. Like, how could I implement this idea to defend their cross grip? So I've been trying to use my free hand to like control their elbow. And then just try and work to get like outside of their uh their elbow. So like from here, you'll see I kind of like sit up and just like push the arm kind of across their body. And then he's trying to like pressure back into me. And then I'm able to pummel in a butterfly hook and offbalance him and then use that off balance to get to an underhook.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:33

And then here's like another example. So like I grab his elbow and I'm just kind of like trying to get my body like outside of that elbow. Maybe use my chin a little bit. Um and then yeah, kind of drag it across. And then Mike tries to to back step out, but I was able to get my knee in like pretty deep here. Yeah. So then he tries to hop over, but yeah. But that's been like the only real like so like the scoop grip is good. I feel like it's it's helpful. Um but yeah, like the other thing might be like they're trying to come down on you and maybe they sit up into like octopus guard type thing. Um but yeah, like this has been the only real thing that I've found to be like I I kind of like I feel like good about trying to get just get outside the arm that they're taking the the cross grip with, you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Yeah, yeah. Um use their grip against them because it their arms are being across. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:39

The the indirect control.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

So um this whole study started off with you thinking about the leading edge from standing, and then it kind of is that how it normally works? You pick like or some concept starts to gain it gain your interest, and then you just start seeing it everywhere as you're as you're watching.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

You know how like people are always asked like, what are you working on? And then people say, like, I'm working on daily Hebe, I'm working on like my strangles from the back or whatever. I've tried to make it more of like I'm working on like this idea, which I can try and do that idea regardless of where the role goes. And this is kind of like what I've been thinking about the past like month is like just like the leading edge idea, specifically like how to use it to beat frames.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:24

Um so whether I'm on like top, bottom, um, standing, whatever, I'm just like trying to think of this idea. Um, and then bottom would obviously be like the other way around, like trying to use your frames more more effectively. Yeah. Um, but yeah, that's that's kind of how I've tried to think about just like picking what to focus on. It's more of something like an idea that I can do from anywhere, as opposed to like a specific position or a move or things like this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

And then it makes your videos hard to make, right? Because you gotta cover like so many different positions and examples to to highlight the concept. But uh I think that a lot of people really like those though, when when when you can illustrate it from everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

Yeah, it takes it takes a while to make those types of videos, obviously. I have to like go through the the study. It's not just me like, oh, this was cool from the past, like you know, event that happened. Yeah. Um yeah, like I like those videos too, but just as the nature of it, I can't put those out every week, you know.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Right. So So the video um that we were kind of showing there, it's an exclusive video in Outlier database?

SPEAKER_03 25:30

No, that was just me teaching it in class. So I like uploaded the exclusive video of like me teaching it. Um and then I like reference it through to the YouTube video. Okay. Um but yeah, I just showed you the examples of me doing it on like this. Um, because that was the easiest way for me to find the files.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

Yeah, yeah, no, no, all good. Um yeah, so we'll link the exclusive video in the description so that way people with the database can can watch you uh teach it. And then um, yeah, we'll keep an eye out for the YouTube video.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Yeah, sounds good.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

There, John. Thanks.