#197 Priit Mihkelson: Improving as a Coach and Journey with CLA

In this episode we chat with Priit Mihkelson, known for Defensive BJJ, and we discuss his learnings over the past few years studying ecological dynamics and practicing CLA as a coach. Hope you enjoy!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Hello. Great. This is Josh from 1-800 BJJ help. Welcome to the show. Happy to be here. Yeah, we're super excited for today. And I know you're in uh out of jujitsu camp right now. Um and so a lot of these topics are probably coming up for you uh day to day. But uh wanted to first maybe you can give a brief intro to like anyone listening who hasn't heard of you. I know you've been in this space for a while, but just in case, um, can you share a little bit about your background?

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Uh yeah, I'm sorry about that. Um so um 26 so far, 26 years doing jujitsu. Uh I so I'm 49 at the moment. I started martial sports, I think, when I was 17. So I started with karate, then I did Aikido, same time, and uh my karate coach died at some point. Um, so then it's chronologically gets weird because uh we ended up doing Wing Chun for different reasons, and I was in charge, the club was handed to me somehow. I I guess I was the best student or whatever. And uh, but I think at some point also I was a Tai Chi coach. I had actually the American coach, uh instructor, Scott Rodell, Mi Chuan, Tai Chi Chuan. I was uh coaching in that, and then Wing Chun, uh, yeah, that was like you know, new kid in a block. Um, it was realistic, you know, and apparently, you know, nut kicks and tongue to the eyes and stuff. And uh but then I switched coaches, I think, four times for different reasons. Um always been stubborn. And then uh finally, last coach was from Lithuania. Then uh that was basically a pyramid scheme, and then uh different reasons, and we left, and then 2005, mid-mid-season, actually 2005 in February. I think we we left and then we opened uh uh Jiu Jitsu MMA Gym, and officially it was 2005 May. Uh so it was three months without the club, so to speak, you know, just doing Jiu Jitsu, and then we somehow we found uh you know some boxing coach that wanted to do boxing for us, and and uh yeah, so and uh I've been doing jujitsu ever since. So I did in Estonia some people know me like Michelson and his seven style or nine styles or whatever, you know, that I was always switching and trying this and that, and you know, never found anything, kind of. And then uh I guess it was about the style to find, you know, that uh jiu-jitsu where I stayed now 26 years.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

So yeah. Wow. And I know uh coaching has been um your passion and interest uh more and more over the years. Um and at camp, I'm sure you have a lot of conversations about this, but what do you think is the job of a coach?

SPEAKER_03 3:57

Yeah, so what I come to um as you know, as eco or CLA or whatever I am, as uh the more I read and everything. So it's a very wide job description. Uh but uh dependent or not dependent on a method, I think my best, my biggest job is to get you come back, is to make you come back, to um create an environment that you wanna come back to, that you even feel like what's the word, compelled, or you know, that you're drawn to it, you know, that not like motivation comes in a way or something, you know, like because we wanna do hard things together, we want to earn the respect that's honest, you know. We wanna learn cool shit, we wanna see other people doing cool shit, we wanna, you know, and so all this self-determination theory, you know, that's people use, uh social things, you know, competence, uh, autonomy, that has to be those basic needs, human basic needs. And I really like that from other some podcasts I got idea that was people like to feel uh safe see uh safe, seen, and suited. So yeah, like you know, then people like to be there, you know. So all that this kind of psychological, you know, or environmental factors that if you create, if you build it, they will come, you know, that's the other way. And um, I guess method helps, yeah. But nobody can make you better if you don't show up. So it's like I think if the culture and you know, environment is good, method will support it because you want to get good and you, you know, uh because yeah, it's you know makes you good and you want to come back. But if the culture is good and method is bad, you will get good anyway, because you know, people do open maths and they're figure shit out, and not all the time the coaching is the highest level, but still people get better. But I guess the, you know, if you go like the method is good, but culture is really bad, and then the you know, method is bad, the culture is bad. So so I think the the biggest thing at the moment, what I think is yeah, like um, like you know, somebody said, what is the what is politicians' actual job? Their actual job is to get re-elected. They have to be good at getting re-elected. They don't have to do their job good, whatever, they have to trick whatever dude, they have to get re-elected. So that's what they have to get really good at, you know. So obviously making a good job helps, but you know, you can do another way also, you know, scamming and stuff. And uh my job is to make it so you don't think that that maybe I'm coming back, that you're coming back. And the more you're coming back to the gym, stay in the environment, the more I can influence you, the more you jujitsu can influence you and everything. So that seems to be uh that was really surprising, actually. Right now, maybe to say, but uh I was I was always like more like like I don't know when I'll say technique driven, let's make people jiu-jitsu better, you know. Uh, but it's I think it's uh something else actually that's people need. And then maybe getting in getting good in jiu-jitsu is byproduct what people actually need. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

So wow. Um for for coaches who are really good, like you know, I've seen so many coaches, coaches that are good at making people come back or compelling people to come back or creating an environment to do so, versus those that are really bad at it. Like, what do you think is the difference in what they do or say or like how they design that environment?

SPEAKER_03 7:37

I would start, you can guide me later, but I can start this that there's different ways. So I like to because, you know, I guess because I read a lot, but but I've changed my environment, so it's very athlete-centered, yeah, like participant-centered. So, but it also can be coach-centered, and uh like you know, typical. I know all the details, you know, I know I'm the best. I you come to me for knowledge, you know, that the we call it dominant way, you know, in science, or sometimes, but also, you know, traditional way of doing things top-down. And um people can also stay there, you know, because they're attracted to the coach. I personally don't like that power play because I think it leads to a lot of weird behaviors also. We have seen in jujitsu recently, also, bad things. But I've been in part of power play in Wing Chun, and then I found out that somebody is manipulating me, so I wasn't happy about it. It was very deliberate about how they played, actually. So I don't like it. So I like um yeah, participants, hobbyists, athletes-centered. So uh more like I don't know if it's we can call it centralized, but you know, whatever. And uh so that could be appealing, you know, that people who are in that environment, they obviously enjoy it because the freedom, they every respect is earned, you know, but it's it's not like the coach is God, you know. But there is a couple of people in the gym that call me God, but that's a different story. Uh there's a yeah, there's a it's a joke in that sense that because I I despise the name professor. Because I I die on that hill. Like uh it's just the hill to die on, but I just know uh we should not call people professors. Uh but uh so I also very appealing, I think, for people could be coach-centered. That's why we have those bad things also happen because people are drawn to it, it's power, they're good, you know, and uh that can be done good or that can be done bad. So I don't I don't know which way is better. I think if you are uh like a coach-centered, but coach is coach does his job and is fair and doesn't power abuse people. So that's I think also a wonderful place to be, and whatever the method happens to be. But yeah, it's about how you create community, you know. So and at the moment, yeah, I'm I don't think we were very, very um coach-centered because my my background is SPG. I don't know if you know the this Portland, Oregon starting organization. I left them in 2018. So uh but we started there, like early 2000s. Uh we joined because we wanted we didn't want a Brazilian style coaching. Yeah, we called it back then, you know, the half an hour warm-up, three techniques, and then you spar, you know. So even right now the SPG has that alignness101.logspot.com. There's a blog, and there's talks about coaching, how you drill, why you drill, what do you drill, how to build a drill. So it was more like something like not like a I don't I'm not saying scientific based, but it was something like the that we call it the Bible, you know. So and I think both environments can be, but I enjoy, I was never so like um authoritarian, so to speak. It's more free. SPG was, they had an anarchy sign, you know. They started with this, and and um so it wasn't that they never changed, they do something else, and uh there's one reason maybe we left. Uh 2018, but you know, they do what they do, people change. Uh and uh but I think it could be done uh and uh both ways, but yeah, I enjoy more like athlete-centered, you know. That I'm I'm I I hate just forced traditions. I hate uh lineups, I hate bowing. No, hate, you know, some some is jokingly, but that I don't like them. I don't think they're necessary. Um in uh in Wing Chun, I had to call somebody seafood that's dad. I don't like it because I have my dad, you know. So, and I I know what dad means and I don't take it lightly. And if somebody demands that I'm your dad now or Wing Chun, and I have to submit to like my behavior like this, then there's a conflict because um I have a special meaning for that. And uh you just can't take it if I know you a couple of years, you know. So, and um all those, and now our environment is very like we don't hug in the end, you know, it's like we don't line up, we just start, we do CLA, ecological dynamics as as best of our abilities. And um, I guess the only ritual we have maybe we do like a belt, we call it Iron Man, you know. So people, some people got a shark tank, but I don't think it's that. But it could be could look similar. So we have very few forced traditions, like uh you have to wear something or whatever, so it's more more chill. We just we want to do have a good group, good culture, and good jujitsu, and everything else that kind of forces us to act certain way, and we cannot be free to express, and certain behaviors are forced on us, and there's no justification for safety and everything, you know, so we don't do it. And uh so I like that. Estonia is also very I think one of the most uh atheistic countries in the world. Uh so so you know we like that also. That so no, no bowing to pictures, and you know, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Gotcha. Um, I'm curious. So culture is like a big word, and you know, some of it can come from the leader and the top down, but I feel like a lot of it is spread amongst each other by what you allow, what you don't allow, what people encourage and discourage, and all the small conversations when you're not there, all that sort of thing. I'm curious if if you were looking for like if you had no coaches under you today and you had to go and recruit, let's say, like a whole team of coaches, like what are those qualities that you look for to help foster the culture that you want?

SPEAKER_03 13:46

I I um I can't I can't tell you because the the the body I do gym with, Ronald Stillman, is also third strike uh black belt. I know him for 20 years. He's like my you know, like my brother. So I I know his work ethic. We've been through shit. And so at the moment it's only us in a board. And third coach, uh Tom, uh the regional top competitor, he he's with us, uh, but he's not in a board. So whatever we discuss, we obviously value his opinion, but it's the the risk of the you know making money and everything and paying salaries, it's on us, you know, with Ronald. But he's the point is like, you know, he's there, he's seeing what we do, he's seeing our values, and we'll see what happens in the future. We don't know, but um I wouldn't know what to do because I know I know I'm very driven. I know how I react in some hard situations. That do I bail, do I push? I know him, I know his work ethic. And I, you know, you can't hide from 20 years, and you it comes out who you are. So at the moment uh it would be very difficult to like just oh, I want to work with you, because that's what what uh you know, first right now we have a club named Estum Jiu Jitsu, yeah. Um, you know, and then we actually had a different club, but COVID killed us. So it was um 3D training, it's from the short three distance training, like uh, you know, like a stand-up lynching ground. We did MMA, we had MMA in Jiu Jitsu gym, but then COVID last stretch of the lockdown. Estonia was pretty liberal with things, but it got crazy in the end. The last stretch was six months, and we had a thousand square meter gym. So he needed a lot of money. And then that stretch killed us, and then we went on um separately. We there's a reason why we did it, and then we talked, and then we was better, so to speak. Uh but uh but in that old time 3D training time in that thousand square meter gym, I experienced that what you asked that you want to work with people, and then we had a thousand meter skills gym, you know, we delegated, we added coaches, but that uh in the end, it was we call it a school money. You know, I never had a university or went to, I don't know, public relations or went to how to run things or how to run people. It's like never. I I've been my own and did my thing and I know what I want to do, and you know, but uh that time turned out to be very valuable to learn um let's I don't know how to uh how to say like how to work with people, but then I understood why people have job interviews. Yes, and um to get to know. And uh you really have to understand their background, what they did before, and we didn't do that, so we learned some hard lessons. And uh that's why the new gym is only me and Ronald. That we learned that uh people that are good on a mat, uh maybe they're not good at something else. And um and so that was like uh by retrospect, it's like obvious, obviously, but back then it was like I was surprised, you know. And then uh then maybe I was a naive also, you know, but because I'm very self-driven, you know. And uh it's not like I'm always active, I'm always doing the right things, but I know that I'm wake up for a reason in the morning, you know. And that was the hard lesson. So if to answer a question, it's I don't know. I would I at the moment uh after uh learned my lesson, I'm very skeptical to take anybody in uh that I want to do business with. I'm very, very um cautious. And obviously, I'm not I don't I'm not educated or qualified to do job interviews. Uh that's also skill to find out a lot about people, their work ethic and stuff and everything. So at the moment, yeah. So I'm happy that I know Ronald. He knows me with my Kirks, and uh as people know me, very serious, I guess. Uh emotionless and the Estonian blunt. Uh in that relationship with Ronald, I'm actually the emotional one. Interesting. Uh yeah, so that's really good, I think, for people. People say even these days, the camp that I opened up that laugh more. But uh, if I feel safe, I open up. So if I'm feel uh I don't know stuff, so right away something kicks in and I'm I'm happy on my own, and I don't I don't grave that, but I can be like a we call it like very chatty, I think. Yeah, yeah but I I I need to feel safe amongst peers and stuff. And then and then Ronald is yeah, he's more like a pessimist. He calls himself realist, but he's I actually I think leaning more towards pessimists, and I'm the optimist one. I want to spend all the money, and he's like, no, no, no, let's not spend all the money in a way that I want to buy stuff, let's wait a little bit more, let's do the decision, let's wait for a month, you know. So I think um it's you know, jokingly, it's uh uh we work very well together. So and um because he's so pessimist, I can come up with some crazy ideas that I know he would reject, and um it's good, like an inner voice, you know. Yeah, and in some things also we're gonna say page and we understand and we're both serious about certain PGJ level and who gets belts and stuff, and uh, but yeah, he's we we weirdly complement each other. Uh we don't talk so much out of the gym, we talk enough already, so we both have separate lives and occasionally they mix because his son is also like four months younger than my son. So so uh yeah, so but uh at the moment, like I said, again, I'm happy that I know him. I don't have to deal with some some weird things happening with the people I don't know, and then I was like, oh shit, you know, that somebody uh effed you over, you know.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

So right. So then um when did CLA and ecological dynamics kind of enter the picture for you? And then also did Ronald agree with it, like that when did things start to change and and what was all that dynamic like?

SPEAKER_03 20:50

Finally asked about it. Yes, I can talk about it. So yeah. Um I would say now we started three years ago. Yeah, I think at least uh four. So it was um I think the original came from Lachlan, actually. Luckland Giles posted something that is reading the Rob Gray book, How We Learn to Move. And I think Tom saw it. He he um freshed our memory in some point that it was actually me, it was me. So Tom uh introduced us this, that Laclan said something, and um somehow it was interesting. I think we read some first books, but for us, I think we thought about it and listened to some podcasts and whatever for a year before we jumped uh fully in. And uh good part was that all of us were in right away, uh, and that was easy because I think at least me and Ronald, um, I think Tom Less, because he wasn't that experienced coach then, uh, we knew we felt what CLA could fix right away. It was in SVG we had the idea of progressive resistance, so that idea is flawed, and uh CLA both have realistic tasks, you know, that actually works better because otherwise the progressive resistance, the burden is on your partner to give you the right resistance. And there was always a problem with beginners, they don't have context, what is right, you know, how much, or the reaction could be realistic. So we task, we can give them realistic tasks, you know, just constrain them. And uh uh so it took us for a year, and then we just jump in. It was just some kind of first August, and then yeah, three months it was a mess. And um I'm from the era what was really difficult. I think right now the bar is lower, but I'm from the era that uh that um they said that you can't say anything, you can't show anything, everything has to emerge. You know, we were in that era, and that turned out to be complete bullshit, and that was really difficult. I'm really happy that I stick to it, and I know a lot of people didn't get it, and it sounded impossible why we're inventing the wheel or why we can't show a triangle, we have to make it emerge, and all this kind of weird. So I'm still mad at eco community. I've been public about it, totally, you know. And Sauras have talked about it that yeah, this is what happens when you listen, you know, not me. And but other voices were um very loud and there was really muddying the water. So when we started three months, it was quite chaos. Obviously constraining the games total bullshit. And uh yeah, really total bullshit. And um so but it you know when you coach read, you see the constraining, uh you constrain and you see behavior, then you start to constrain differently. And uh I've messed up enough classes, not like one, but clearly enough. And even maybe last year, March. I always say that maybe last year March was the or April was a turning point that I don't know, something happened. We got more confident, maybe was enough information out already that we saw enough application, and maybe information settled, you know, certain things they need just time. And um but yeah, so so far me, Ronald, Tom, we're all on the same page. And uh when I talk to beef people, that's usually rare. Usually one coach starts to think and everybody thinks he's stupid, and you know what the hell you're doing. And so in our case, it was rolling. Um I wouldn't want to be in that situation when one is teaching one way, other is teaching differently, because I think it's very confusing for our students. But it is what it is, you know. Um so we were happy, and um, yeah, now you know, information, books. Um, I read you know, I keep reading. This is you know, this is the sport gene, just finished that's not the eco-book, but there's enough books. And in my list, I have seven to read now, so there was a growing pile somehow. I read and then there's more um about you know psychological safety and all the you know uh motivation and interviewing and a lot of other stuff, systems thinking. And so it's it's really it's really broad what I'm what I'm reading, trying to get better at. And uh now it's just forward. Yeah, so I feel more confident. Uh I still consider Mr. S Mr. Greg Sauders uh the gold standards. So the application is like uh gold standard. There's I don't think we can argue about that. Uh maybe some other strong people come in in certain because I would like to see other applications. Obviously, I know Kivan is doing and stuff, but still, you know, Souders is the way he speaks and stuff, it's just like I just melt, I just fall in love when I watch the videos. Um just it's so clear, pure, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. You know, and I see the passion obviously and stuff, and I understand the bluntness because I came to the scenery and turned my back to everybody, and then I said everybody's wrong. So I alien alienated very many people that thought I was full of shit and their cultures are right, and I I said they're wrong because you can turn your back and be fine, you know. So, and I understand his everybody hates him, that I just can see past that. Uh, people call it arrogance or cockiness, and I don't think he is, and I think he's just an entertaining, passionate person, you know, who's who knows his shit. So, and now it's obviously easier. So, last year starting, I think starting April and stuff, it's it's like confidence is different, you know. So, not not everything all the time work, but I can I can pivot classes now while giving a class. Before it was like I messed up, and I was like, took me a couple of days to go like what to do. And then I I've even mid-class, I said to people like, we stop now, um, and then I don't know, and then we change topic, and then we'll come back to this, but I'm sorry, you know. And um, and people trust me, and you know, we still produce the highest wrappers in Estonia and everything. And obviously, if you keep this up for a couple of years, you you kind of weaken the trust of things, but right now it's getting up, and we have more, you know, uh more how to say it, more examples also, you know, all the DVD Touters, Kivan, all the seminars coming out, you know, different coaches uh applic uh different coaches saying different things, you know. And so it's easier to make your mind, I think. For our newcomer, I think it's too much information to deep in, so I'm happy that I grew into it in a in a good way. So yeah, but I I think there's I would not still say like, yeah, this is it, or you know, uh I would I would be a little bit with shaky legs when Sauras will watch my classes, but I guess I'm not embarrassed, you know, in that sense anymore, and I feel that way. But I think what comes to creating behavior and developing knowledge about and being that, so uh that's still still in progress and uh reading books and creating those flourishing environments, you know. I mean, people can figure their own shit out also, and and I can guide them. So it's uh that's that's a very like a I I don't know if it's right to say fruitful journey or something. Like I really enjoy it. And then people are getting better, they're having more fun. We have the fastest black belt ever, unofficial black belt, basically, it's weird to say, in Estonia. Fastest round belt official. And it's like weird things are happening in the gym, also. That maybe not everything can be explained, people being talented or training too much. Or I've been in a bit, you know, in a business 26 years. I've seen people come and go and talented one. But certain things, like you know, our blue belt, like getting to blue belt level has dropped like uh average person twice a week, you know, maybe two years, something, you know. Now it's year. People getting blue belts in the normal blue belts in a year, you know. So uh one guy, the fastest ever purple belt in Estonia, year and a half, of unofficially, because we didn't give it to like because we were like, it's weird. And we waited six months more to just be sure that it was weird. Because we wanted to give him blue belt after four months in jiu-jitsu. Wow. He's he has the flexibility and stuff, certain attributes and making it easy. But he was blue, he was blue belt in four months. We were like, I'm not giving him a blue belt. This is not normal, you know. I've seen talented people before, but uh, and then you know, and then usually it's like year, year and two months, year and three months, and uh, even like for average people. So uh it's like weird things, and and I would consider some of it to be like also the part of the method, not just uh community of support, people coming back. Uh, because I I think it's we see it also our guys' beginners roll, they can roll after a couple of months, you know. Before we had to, when it was technique-based, we have to teach them to roll, you know, after three months. So we see the changes, and you know, and it's not only like, yeah, you have uh just more people and they're talented, and then everybody wants to say that no, there's something else is going on. So and uh whatever the science evolves and wherever that goes, and we'll change our mind again when we have to. But we were happy that we could make that leap because I know how difficult it is for some people.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

So yeah, there's a few topics in there that I that I want to talk about. Maybe the per the first is you know, those first few months where you said it was all bullshit, it was like super hard and difficult. I'm curious, what do you think are some of the misconceptions about COA and and the challenges of first putting it into practice?

SPEAKER_03 30:59

Well, the challenge is the same thing. People think you can't show anything, you can't do anything, you know, or show, yeah, yeah, and you can tell anything. And uh just I don't know. I I I argued, uh I did a wrong thing. I argued with somebody in the internet yesterday that authority was thrown at my way right away. They have done jujitsu for 35 years and they know everything. So I was like, okay, conversation is over, I guess. And uh uh but yeah, so just we can show. I can show you all the details. Yeah. CLA or eco doesn't restrict me of showing things or you know, saying you the things, or it just I think the reason why we do this is different. So, because if I want to develop independence and critical thinking and you know solving problems, then I'm trying to wait until you give you the answer, guide you, or everything. So if I really have to tell you that you might think even unfailed, you know. And uh all the you know, people talk about all the details, and then if you think your coach has all the details and there's no room for new details, and nobody else can discover any other detail, then that's kind of also weird to think that. And uh everybody, if you watch 10 different knee slide people explaining knee slide, there's some real, really weird, different details coming up also that one coach knows and everybody doesn't some somebody else doesn't know, you know. So but but but what if you missed that detail? Well, if a detail didn't help me do the armbar and I finished without that detail, clearly it was good, you know. And I guess people are training for that kind of like perfect situation, and when you watch fights, it's not really perfect, you know. So that detail may be just important when you know people are not resisting or something, you know. So if it was effective and it's effective. So I think just the fear of I cannot show you or or I cannot tell you, or yes, you can, you know. If you can't find other way, yes, you can. Just start to do better because guided discovery, it is more sticky, you know, when there's a uh struggle, emotional attachments, you know, people remember better things. And uh I these days, I also, if you're somebody listening, you know, the coaches, these days, because I'm a parent, uh my son is five years old, these days I talk through parenting a lot. And I somehow people get it better. Because in the jiu-jitsu, they they run to help people. I want to show you this and I want to show you that, and I will save you, and this will save you. And then I was like, think about if you would do everything for your kid, make every choice, fix every problem they ever had, and not let them struggle, they will be entitled assholes. And every parent is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. You want to struggle. You know, the moms are always more holding, the dads are more pushing, you know, than the world. So but you want to struggle. Like I usually give that example. Like, if you want your kid to learn how to climb a tree, do you lecture him five minutes about it? Or you just let him climb a tree. And then you're there, put the mattresses there, but small a tree, whatever it is, you know, catch him. Just let him climb a tree. Don't lecture him. You're killing all the joy. But what about this detail? Because he can climb better. Who cares? Let him climb a tree. The time teaches him, and you can have a conversation, and then just you want to take all the joy out of that. The joy is the doing, you know, the struggle, becoming, you know. And uh I think, yeah, what up, fix this and fix that, and you know, yeah, but you wouldn't do this to a kid. Give them all the money, give them all the answers, you know, so they will not be prepared for the world, you know. They go to job market and they will go like real life hits them in the face. So I don't know if it's right to say you wouldn't do it to a kid, why you do it to strangers, you know? So, but I think through parenting, I think people get a yeah, yeah, you know, that why do I do this and that? And I know you want to help, and it comes from that good place. And uh maybe reading some books or listening to some books could help, you know, and understanding how learning works and everything. So don't be afraid of showing things. But if you show this is the correct way, probably that's argumentative, argumentative, but showing examples, totally fine. And uh that is a good this is all from Rob Grape, ecological coach book, but uh that let's say if you like crossface half card, you know? So instead of just doing, yeah, I like to use crossface and this is what I do, instead of maybe you uh uh point them towards the effect the crossface has, that one way to turn his head away, let's say I like to do crossface, but there's other ways, and your job is to make them look away. You know, so you just suggest. And uh it's totally fine to show one example, or if you really have to. But what is the function of that crossface? Don't teach a crossface with teaching a function. So, and yeah, so don't be that, oh, you can't do this, do that. And I find I still find people talk about it that, oh, eco guys, you can't show anything. Uh, you know, it's like, god damn it, read a book, you know, and uh we can show all the details and you can't, and it's like that kind of silliness, you know. And uh I think that that's still coming up, so that that means they know it, you know, but it's still like, yeah, you can't show up. And just somebody, I can send you the screenshot later. I'm not gonna mess with my phone. But uh somebody just, I don't think today in the morning wrote in my page, in Facebook page, that that he thinks it's condescending that uh eco think that uh the adults can't handle that detail, the leverage, the explaining of the things. He considers it condescending that uh that eco just forbids that knowledge from practitioners that we cannot handle it. And I was like, oh my god, it's like where is this coming from? And uh so that we're fighting still. And I I feel like, yeah, people, I don't know, they don't read probably, yeah, so they haven't taken a look. They think it's some kind of weird thing. And uh so, yeah, so going around here, so just don't be afraid. And if your skill is not there, don't be afraid of showing that. And I like those articles also that uh the one volleyball volleyball volleyball volleyball coach I I followed, but he said he wrote about just start where you are, just add a little bit more representativeness, a little bit more play, a couple of games. It's already better than just you know, just doing the maybe technique. If you want to try it out, just uh because uh Sauders talks about it that he wishes that also he would make the leap like 100% go right away in. He was also, I think, um, you know, step by step going into the more and he wishes that, you know, but it's not easy. So I think we have to give people that leeway. Even a little bit is better. Try, do you like it? How it is. You can still save the class with techniques and stuff, and you know what people are accustomed to and everything. So I don't think these days it's hard to start because you can buy some videos and stuff and get an example, what's going on, and there's so much resources already. Um, but yeah, it's not like teaching a YouTube technique, you know. So, but yeah, don't be afraid of that. I don't I don't want to say nonsense, but but I think ecological gauge, there's a really nice page that guidelines and that kind of destroys all this all this wrong talk about you can't show and stuff, and they just give you guidelines how to show, how to talk about it. So it's it's more suggestive, you know, so to speak. So I think that seems to be still what I feel it's the biggest misconception about things that uh you preach you can't show your hawking now, you can't do your stuff now. Yes, I can, you know. Now I just can do things in context. And if somebody goes really deep, I can talk about what I really know, but there has to be a context. They have earned that level of detail, and we can talk about it. And uh, if they haven't done their due diligence to get to really that level, my detail won't save them. So it's just like over the head, it's just it doesn't matter to them. So I can show all the details if you're in that, if you earn them, if you have the sensitivity to pick it up. So yeah, so there's nothing wrong about talking about stuff, but doing is the king.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

I'm curious to get your thoughts on on how I've been thinking about this recently. Um so basically, like I still show stuff, but the it's like much lower on the the totem pole. So like if someone has a question, the first thing I clarify with them is like, what are you like what's your task? What are you trying to achieve here? And then if they understand like their ultimate goal, then you ask them what are they focused on that they think is gonna help them achieve that goal. And if you feel like their task and focus is good, um you can like try and change their focus and say, like, how about we try and focus on this instead of that, see if that helps you achieve your task. And that's not showing detail yet. And then if you feel like their task and focus are good, they're just kind of like struggling to achieve it, then you can give them a detail um or like show them something that might help them, you know, achieve that task that they're trying to achieve. Or you just put them, put them closer to the winning condition.

SPEAKER_03 40:27

Right. So there is, yeah, like there is uh, I don't I don't have a metric, but it was very cool to see like your faces change, like boom, boom, you know, it's like different face popped up to you. Ask the question. Technology. Uh but yeah, you can you can do that. So it's like you can draw them out a bit to make it longer, so to speak, but then you guide them back. So that's also maybe the road is too long, you know. So you have to give them more bread crumbs and stuff till you pick it up and what's the focus. So that's one way to do it. You see how much you can draw them out, and then the guidance and stuff can guide lead them back in, or you just put them closer to the you know, finishing position and then stay there as long as they can move them away from that, you know. So the certain attractors are getting stronger, you know. So so it's different ways of I guess uh like fixing that problem, you know, like yeah, but mostly it's about asking questions. If you that's what uh I haven't read it, but obviously I've read I've read about it like articles, but I read I haven't read the book, but motivational interview, and that's all about asking questions, you know, making so your job is basically that like therapist, you know, you ask questions. What do you feel here? What do you see there? You know, uh what has to happen that you would see over that angle, you know, or this, you know. So you always guide them using questions. So it's like a that's a really good way of coaching that uh so and yeah, and certainly if certain detail, whatever helps, or maybe certain even like I can you can show them one solution to solve this so they get the idea what they're doing, you know. So yeah, you try this, and you can even try that solution, just get going, you know, and then it also depends on a person how much they're willing to take risks and look stupid, you know. So that's a big thing always. I I've personally cases when I've held somebody's hand because they had a small panic attack, because I said something was wrong, and it was a girl, and I uh she was next to me, laid down, and I was holding the arm 10 minutes, and I was uh reassuring her it's a safe place, couldn't make mistakes and stuff, and then I ran a class holding her hand. That's extreme, but also I was like, okay, that's that's the coach's job, you know, too. But it was very, very strict environment where he was she was from, and so getting criticism that something was wrong kind of broke her down totally. So as a coach, I find that's the really not that I want that everybody's like that, but that's what you develop yourself as a coach. Because if you have a talented person, moves well, flexible, yeah, that's my ideal student. No, it's just like that's easy. You want those fragile people in that sense, or that you want to push and they want to build themselves up. And I think if you can make those bear stands, you know, we call it in Estonia, so that's way bigger accomplishments. So not knowing, you know, what you're talking about, it depends on a person, also. I leave some people alone, frustrate the shit out of them, you know, go find an angle, and they they love it. And for some people, I have to be really careful that they're not willing to risk and look stupid so much, so then I kind of have to show more or put them closer to the winning condition. So it's that's the hard job when everything, you know, like Eco says it, everything depends all the time. So, and you can do a way better job if you know your group, you know. So you know people like motivation level, tolerance for frustration, how much they enjoy it really, and the the per you know the childhood, whatever it is. So the more info you have that, the better job you can do with them.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

So right. Um, I want to go back to another uh topic you mentioned earlier about progressive resistance versus tasks, and maybe what the flaw might be in progressive resistance. We might piss off a lot of people here with this one.

SPEAKER_03 44:08

No, no, no, it's just it is what it is, you know.

SPEAKER_02 44:10

Yeah, I I do hear all the time, um, hey, for this one, go 50% or go 25%. Can you explain maybe what the the flaw is or maybe why tasks might be better?

SPEAKER_03 44:21

You know, we so I will answer that, but there is there was actually a podcast when me and Craig argued.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:27

You argued. I'm not arguing, but I kind of agree with him, but he was like, his point was because I was coming from SPG side, and that's progressive resistance, and he was like, This is bullshit, you know, and the whole podcast why why I was wrong.

SPEAKER_02 44:40

Yeah, it was so yes, uh, for people who don't know, I this was one of the first Greg Souter's podcasts I listened to. Um I I really liked it. You were kind of arguing the progressive resistance side. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so what are what do they think? What is their stance, I guess, and then where do you see the the flaw? Like how how'd your mind changed on over the years?

SPEAKER_03 45:01

Well, um progressive resistance, the I let's say the idea sounds very solid, yeah, that uh if you get certain things done, remove the goalposts and make it harder. Yeah, so it's not a bad idea. For of course, you know, when you talk about 50 and 75 and 76, I I don't think uh so then when we when people criticize it, you know, uh it's 75, how do you know? I guess it's like relative, you know, that people say like this is like you get the idea what I'm asking you to do, yeah? But then why stay 50 anyway? So it's like maybe there's a better way of saying than just 50%, you know? But uh, you know, go hard enough that they get a success, but they have some challenge, you know? So it's it's very difficult to express without numbers, also, you know. So 50, you know, could be that that hard, but it's doable, and you know, so and the problem with the for us at least for the progressive resistance is that um we had to make some arm bars, let's say, uh more difficult. So it wasn't like the defender who's defending the armbar had like a task. They're trying to get both uh elbows outside of their legs, you know, that's their task. You know, they had to find the ways to make it harder. Resist or something on then wasn't any specific that they're trying to aim, just make it harder. And if you're white belt, you don't know what's realistic, you know? And you you don't know how to defend. You don't know that maybe you can let go and defend differently or make it harder or make the finishing harder. You have no clue about context. So I have to tell you all the time what is the real context, and they don't know how to move. So and even with higher belts, we had sometimes issues that they went to harder. And then uh what what the what was the problem was sparring, because that progressive resistance never basically included all the information that's available in that situation in sparring. So very often when we sparred from that, different things happened. Now people uh reacted, I think, even unconsciously, more realistically. And then what we did was like not what we did in the class, because then it wasn't that resistance, and now it's the resistance is different, you know? So I think that was a like a big issue because the idea is good, you know, make it harder and everything, and you know, why not? So I think that for me it was sometimes always annoying to deal with that. That to beginner go harder, go easier, to some advanced guys called not go not go not so hard with the beginner, you know. Always like what is the right thing? So it's really like a feeling, you know? And what kind of how do you because many cases you have 10 ways to give progress resistance, like what I want them to do, because you can defend it all kinds of weird ways. You know, from armor from the guard, you can dig in between the legs, you can pull it out, you can stack, you know. What are we talking about here? And then if I just tell you, oh, do this or that, or it's still not like there's a task you'll win, or you know, it's like I I would have to explain them everything they have to do and now do it progressively, but they haven't done it before, you know? And that was always the thing, like, god damn it, you know, always some guys and they don't know, and it's too hard, too easy, you know. But with tasks, it's like you constrain it, so it's easier or harder options, but but the task is realistic, you know, they have to hold it or uh pull the arm out or put arms under the elbows or under the armpits or or under the knee lines or whatever. It's just it's a realistic task. And we see those things happen in sparring also. So they're they're training for realistic things, and then we just expand and we limit the resistance, uh, but it's always real. And what's what's the other thing is with progressive resistance, it's kind of weird to say, but it's not alive. Because I'm I'm not fighting for my thing, I'm making the thing you want to do harder, and I'm letting you succeed. You understand? So that makes it by definition not live. So I'm not dealing with uncooperative, you know, resisting opponent. I'm letting you do it. I'm making it harder, and then oh, you're gonna tap. But that's not what happens in fights, you know? I will act differently. So that was pointed out to me in just recently, I think. And I was like, oh shit, I never thought about it even that way. Because with the CLA tasks, it's right away, it's real. I'm fighting, you're fighting, you know? And I'm trying to impeach you, but there's always the explanation aspect, you know. If you we we call it find a way to lose, you know, the building the degeneracy, different ways of solving and uh ending up in the same solution space. And uh if you can't find it, uh will take away certain like options, and then you're you're forced to find it if you use one winning condition too much, you know, or something, if you don't look for it yourself. But it's always honest, you know, they're not uncorporated, even if it's small tasks, wide tasks. So nobody's letting you do shit. You know, it's always they're trying to pull their arm out and not getting you this, but they're in a bad position and it's hard to do. But if you get it, it's yours, you know, not like I gave it to you. So that makes the whole difference, you know, then. And um so but I think the idea was good that you know, progressively, progressively, and maybe you we get to 75, then the class is over, and then we spar. And then you maybe recalibrate. The SPG had an I method, uh, introduction, isolation, integration. So that integration part where you know, we always did this, that you maybe we did something in a class like an arm bar, you start from arm bar. So you can kind of recalibrate. But because of the pressure was not honest, and people feel it right away because now they have to be like honest environment. Now you're more scared because before they gave you this with resistance, but if they gave, so um, I think certain things didn't come out that the things within a class, they work differently in a fight, in a in a spar. With CLA, it's way less like this. It's just certain things we show that's important, hiding your elbows and stuff. They happen in a fight also, and then it's way more close. And uh, so that's I would say that's a good idea, and we still, you know, like uh like also CLA, it's calibration, you know. You train something and you put it back to the hole and you calibrate it, you know, to that bigger hole. That's why the sparring after, you know, after class could be could be beneficial because we start in those positions. We play bigger games, so there's that calibration period that you would have to um you would have to have to make really things stick and work together. So it still was, I think it was like a you know, we call it Brazilian method, you know, that it was still like we uh introduction. We also use that method, that inquiry method. That was like, let's do half-crack passing for a you know warm-up, and then I would see what they're missing, you know. So uh that's normal. You can do it also with EcoD and stuff. But that was inquiry, you know, the problem came out, and then we talked about it. So there's also ideas that in SPG that you don't introduce the solution before the problem emerges, you know. So I think I always say this, I think they were really close as as a method. Uh, but I I feel I don't think it in a bad way, but I think they lost the opportunity to hook it to the actual science and take over the world. So that that I really feel that's like a little bit like I feel it this way, like lost opportunity. Because I think they were really small. That's why I feel that certain Adam Singer or uh me and stuff, we had a not so big jump from from uh what we did before to the CLA and Eco because it was close. We didn't do full sparring, you know, full drilling, we left and right 20 times. We we played progressive resistance games, you know. We tried to, you know, made it make it more live, you know, added more variability in, but it wasn't with task-based. That's totally like we were like, oh my god, this is so perfect, you know. And then obviously constraining and everything, that's more difficult than to actually make something come out and you know. Yeah, can we have any idea how to create behavior and what what happens, what creates what that was like totally like a blind and uh like I don't know where.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

Can we give an example of uh let's take maybe like the single leg? And can you give an example of how you would have done it in the past with progressive resistance and then how you would do it now? Just so people can like have a concrete feel for for the difference.

SPEAKER_03 53:51

Oh my god, you would win a spot. No, no, no, no. I have to think about how would I do it.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

Or you could pick something else.

SPEAKER_03 53:58

You could pick something else besides we put this single leg in my head now.

SPEAKER_02 54:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 54:04

So yeah, yeah. So let's say I maybe those CLA depends also what we want to do in CLA, obviously. Yeah, yeah. We could be on a knee and we want to get to the ankle, you know, and from there we interact feet to feet, you know, put their buttons, arms on a mat, you know. So uh, but I think with uh let's say single leg, uh knee line, head, you know, ear to the chest, let's say we would still maybe ask them to lean in with a pressure, and maybe are on a pipe so don't fall that fast or something. In the try to keep the balance, yeah. Try to keep the balance because I'm pulling, don't just fall right away. Maybe. Um maybe uh like uh uh what else? But usually when I think like uh progressive resistance, I I always when I talk about examples, I just arm bar, you know. So just make the you know, you're in top cards, they have an arm bar, so you cross their arms, you know, and then they wanna finish, you're gonna make it harder. Or or let's say they're finishing and you try to get your arm out, and uh so certain, but I guess the point is still you let them do it. So that part, you know. So that that's the for me, that's the ruining part. Right. That is progressively you make it harder, but you let them do it. And if they can do it, then resist more. And if if I in arm bar I pull my arm out, you try to pull it harder, you know. So so that's would be kind of the idea that you'd really try to arm bar them. But maybe you start without this grip from the armbar, you know, that your arms are connected to you know, from the bottom arm bar, and then you start from here, you know, and then try to get your arm and they want to finish, you know, but they I guess they have to like let you do it. You know, so it, you know, it's getting in a it's very like a shaky legs, you know. So the idea is good, but because I can do a really good progressive resistance. Because I know I because it's sometimes I have a very hard time teaching this to people because like it's a feeling based. So I really have to have best intentions training you. And I could do this during my armbar. I I know exactly like you know what I would look for. I've been in those armbars, I know how to resist or how to give realistic feedback to you and try to and give you just enough time to pull your arm out, maybe you're not. See, that was a timing. Let's do it faster now, you know? So I would um I think it's you know, in a way possible. I uh like uh when everybody's on the same page. Uh but then the point is we could do it early right away with resistance, just with realistic tasks, and we don't have to pretend doing jujitsu for some 20 minutes, and then comes resistance, a real one, you know? Because it makes sense to make things harder and blah, blah, blah. And then, but in CLA, we make things harder also. We just start with a small task, you win it, we make it, you know. Eventually we just make it bigger, you know, the problem spaces or solution spaces bigger. So I think it can work, but it's so much work to explain people what their job is. They would have to know so much context and uh be good humans, you know, no ego, just there for your partner. And uh I'm in on paper, it just I think it's pretty. I think in practice, and also could be like maybe somebody jumps on this tree, you know. I was like, maybe I I built a bad culture. I don't think so. But your culture wasn't good, that's why you failed in this method. And also, as good as the method is, CLA is just better. That it just it it it reaches the same point faster. The experience level is way better, it's more honest. It's not like the progressive was bad, it's definitely better than just drilling left and right and without any resistance. Obviously, you know, drilling that doesn't make any sense as much. People want to tell, and there's more time to that, whatever, you know, why not tinker? That's a different thing. It's not like drilling. Uh, but that is clearly like between the CLA and just you know traditional do it this 10 times and then that's let's move forward. It was like a you know, between isolation stays between the sparring and introduction, you know. But just I think CLA solves that problem better. Yeah, and just it's there's no emotional attachment. I like it more, whatever. Just we see the results. I've done both. It reaches the same level of competence or whatever, better, it's safe. Some people think it's right away sparring and that's why it's unsafe. No, it's not, you just have to constrain it. So it is a coach's knowledge, you know, about stuff and how to constrain. It can be wild because our three months, you know, we were scared in that sense. And because it was full on sparring for one hour, and then it was sparring after that one hour because we sparred, you know, after one hour class. So it was two hours of sparring. And uh I'm not joking, it it was it was a mess, and we were scared, and we were like, I don't know how long we can do it. If it doesn't get better, we don't know. So it was that, and it I think it lasted that three months easily. And I don't know what made it better. Information came out, or we read, or we understood that okay, we have to change some constraints now to make behavior better. But uh, I don't know, you know. So, but that was, I think, that for another coaches, the scary part. And I it was scary. I'm I'm I'm not saying I think today is easier because you see application and you can start with plug and play, Mr. Prex Aurus, you know, if you're listening to this, yes, and you know, move away from that, obviously. But it helps to start. Uh, but I think that jump is the scary one, you know. So it's like, yeah, I'm totally like this was a mess, and I'm sorry, you know, if anybody, my my gym guys listening. Until last year, you know, I messed up classes, and we had some uh people left us last year because they didn't understand what they were learning. They didn't understand what they learned last year, no, before they left, yeah. So, but also I admit that some classes, you know, more than one was eh, you know, on a shaky legs. Uh, but we also had weird results at the same time. We had the fastest blue belts and purples, so something was different. But some people they were like, they they wanted to learn with techniques more. And uh, we talked about coaching also, you know, environment and stuff. So uh this is not me talking about everything is perfect in my gym. This is that's why I read so much, and I wanna I wanna better my past mistakes, you know, um, because I've learned and people have left, and I consider those things my failures, that I didn't address them, I didn't know them, I didn't I didn't know how they felt about the whole thing. So these days, we we we created by not dealing with certain things, we created a couple of monsters, uh emotional, like uh situations that were like our created because we I was like, yeah, whatever, I don't want to deal with that. These days I'm very honest. You know, I I learned my lesson in a hard way, and I'm very sorry that those people left and I felt unguided. Um, and uh so now we address things, we talk about it, I see something, I go, and as awkward I am, I'm very bad at picking up social cues as a human. To me, you have to tell me how you feel. I I have a like I'm blind to that. So I usually that's why I'm blunt because I think it's normal, and then you understand me, and then everybody says I'm super cooky or blunt and arrogant. I was like, no, I just I don't feel it, I don't understand it. And then I feel super bad about it because I don't do it like you know, by deliberate, but I just I don't have like a social filter, I don't read people very well. So for me, it's very difficult actually. And uh those the being coach actually helps me tremendously to understand myself and pick up those cues better and learn the way I speak because certain words have power, certain fur words take power. So I'm reading about all those things that um that I was like, oh shit, but he knows and if this, this, and how you speak and how you end your sentences and you know the tone, and I'm like, oh shit, you know, there's I can so much understand me, and then because I'm around it, surrounded by people, I have so much practice, you know. So that's why I'm I'm the coaching is like ah, it's so fascinated that I can better my future uh my past mistakes and uh do it better because obviously don't deal with people, you have problems, and you know, big gym, and uh not everybody's always happy and the motivation and stuff. And so it's it's yeah, it's it's uh I'm very happy to be in in this weird spot, you know. So yeah, sorry about the rant, like they say.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:56

No, that was that was perfect. Um wait, Jake, I saw you come off mute a little earlier. Did you have something you wanted to ask?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:02

No, I was just uh a while ago we were talking about the progressive resistance for CL, and I heard Preet have mentioned this before, um, and it felt like it was uh like it fit the context well, where you said like uh your ability to get something out of the progressive resistance was like um kind of like dictated by how good your partner um is during that process. And it's not a zero-sum game, like you said, like the other person's gonna win. Um and it felt like you know, one person's holding mitts for the other person half the class, and then you're just kind of waiting for your turn to hit the mitts. And uh CLA solves that problem where like half the class isn't you holding the mitts, like you're trying to win the entire class, you know, like you're gonna work in the that is that was the very, very big change that I really didn't expect, but then yes, you said it.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:02

I'm not holding mitts, you know. That's what Thai boxing classes is, you know, holding mitts, and that's actually the coach's job. But you're paying for holding mitts for others, so you could train actually yourself. Uh sorry. And it wasn't yeah, like uh I'm end of the armbar task and I'm actually developing some armbar awareness in the end range and have some specific tasks to do, and you know, obviously you lose more. But yeah, I was training them. And that that was and then you obviously we did we didn't uh have big warm-up, but we had a 10-minute warm-up with uh you know mobility stuff, so we wasted time there, and like any gym, purple boats were late in a gym, you know, because they were skipping warmups and we had always weird conversations about it, that's why adults are late. As soon as we started CLA and you know, training for one hour, uh people were we have very, very rare people are late. And uh, we just don't do warmups anymore. People come in, they warm up themselves before the class. And yeah, that holding pads, being a partner, it's actually now, you know, people know me for talking in seminars, I think, but that's a seminar format. And I think I'm a bit like a storyteller or something, I don't know. So uh and uh but in my own gym I talk less and it's more action, and so it's still most of it is always coupled to some somebody that's resisting. And that was a big change that I think everybody also noticed that it's it's fully on. And actually, what the side effect was also that that our we had usually one-hour class. Sometimes I even went over one hour and five minutes because I had to teach techniques and some options, you know, uh SPG time. Uh or even after I left, maybe we didn't have CLA then some some time before we discovered that. Uh, and then we had one people because I guess it was a little bit, you know, it gets sweaty because it's progressive resistance, you're doing something, you know. Um then uh people rolled sometimes 45 minutes, and we had officially two hour classes, one hour class and one hour rolling, then usually the majority or more left, like 45 minutes. When CLA, it dropped. And because the hour was already so intense, people got people got their sweat going, and that's why our now classes are uh one hour and a half. Uh people just stopped, even like in older times when we had different structure of the class, we had like a sparring separately as a class. People just stayed after the technical class, or some people joined the sparring class, didn't do the technical one. And uh sometimes people just did 15 minutes and left home, you know, with CLA also. Because it was first of all, the you know, definitely in the first three months, it was like on, you know. So if you did two hours, one hour like on sparring, you know, you were exhausted. You didn't want to roll after that anymore. So it dropped, and now that's why we changed the new gym right now, and we're training in a mall, uh, very fancy place. Um, where now it's an hour and a half, everybody's happy, nobody's complaining. We should I want to roll more because class is active, you know, and rolling is intentional with we're calibrating, doing stuff that we did in a class with a bigger context. Plus, we have twice a week open mats. So so right now, yeah, this was good observation from you that this was a big side effect that we kind of noticed later that oh shit, we wasted our time just, you know, warm up, explaining technique, then being a partner to somebody. So, how how long have you actually trained in that one hour for yourself? It wasn't that much. It was basically the same as drilling class, but it looked more progressive. You know, you were you were sweating, you're not standing still, but it was still not much of the hour you're training yourself. You know, listening, me, doing warm-up, being a partner, yeah, like maybe I don't know, 20 minutes or something. You trained for yourself. Right now it's completely opposite. So yeah, that those those side effects, that was a big one. The warming warm-up one, the being late one, I didn't have to talk to people anymore because if they're late, they join when I explain the game more. So they sometimes wait 10 minutes, sometimes five. You never know when the change is happening. So that problem disappeared. People having more fun, tasks for better, uh, people training themselves. Yeah, so so many like uh weird side effects that just disappeared that in old program, old old program uh kind of the resilience was there that they didn't disappear. We couldn't solve them, you know. So uh and the classes were longer and then more technique, and then you know, the variability thing that's also changed, you know, that we teach one class, you know, stand-up pin and guard, every class for variability. That first for me, if you're like if somebody's coach is listening and tries to do it, that sounded insane. And uh that how can you do three topics in one class? That was literally, I did not believe how this is possible. Because I liked long classes, you know, technical some stuff, you know, and then progression and stuff that people need to know. And that was like, I don't know. I still remember when I believed uh when it was two topics, it was one body lock class, body lock passing class, that after 20 minutes, 25 minutes, I told the people we could stop here right now. See, this is a perfect moment to stop. We continued, but then I was like, oh shit, we could stop. This is a good class. And I realized, oh shit, you know, teaching was a little bit better. And then the third topic, I think, happened not last year, but year before, I think. So uh yeah, some but uh but yeah, the two topics came first. I felt it right away. Oh shit, we could do it. And the third one, so one was March, I don't think it's last year, maybe even year before. Maybe I missed something when I said last uh earlier, maybe two years ago, but uh March, and then the three topics I realized in July. So it was like uh maybe four months, five months difference when I felt, oh shit, here I could put uh like a third topic for 15 minutes, maybe. So it wasn't pro progressively also understanding how you can do that, you know, that because that was insane. That and that cleared right away that that usually as a coach, you know, you teach Monday knee slide, you want to progress Wednesday, but then half of people are new, you know, they didn't do Monday. And I was like, for fuck's sake, how can I coach that way? You know, making my life hard, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, not always publicly talking about it, but uh, you know, you feel the frustration. And when CLA introduced that, or Sauras, like, yeah, we do this and variability and three topics, and I was like, huh, you know, small progressions here and there, you know. And then that was like a lifesaver. And then from Kabir, Bath from Canada, Vancouver, uh, that came the idea. I think I don't know if Saurus uses it, but certain schedule we use is from Sour's. But but he said uh he stays on a topic for two weeks. That we like right now, literally, we do uh one class, we teach two weeks. So there's some small progressions. If you do all the classes, I can give you more, and we vary and we change partners and stuff, so it's always interesting. But we basically do one class for two weeks. So if you're missing classes, you treat at least train once a week, you pay two times. If you train every time, you know, you get four classes. So you can just do more, go deeper, you know, explore stuff. So so that helped because Kabir was doing a week and it was too short, there was a three, there was too long. So we tend to stay on a topic for two weeks, seems to be like good for hobbyists, you know. And if if you're a competitor, you can do longer, maybe because you show up all the time. We have competition classes and stuff, so maybe there's like a progression is different because you can't, people show up all the time. So that lot of a lot of changes that CLA has allowed us to do that just solved so many problems that that you feel as a coach you have, like, how can I progress? Because people just don't come to classes. What do I do? You know? And um the old system couldn't we couldn't find any solution for that. So so yeah, there's a lot of lot of really good side effects. And I don't know I just Adam Singer told me this. So that's uh bad side effect of CLA, jokingly. Yeah, I'm Estonian, so I only do good jokes. Um that Adam said uh people are dumber about jujitsu, but they're doing better, jiu-jitsu. You understand? They don't know so much techniques, you know, and what is the that angle and that angle. They don't they're not aware of the they're just doing shit, cool shit. And they're like uh, in a way, before we explained them the theory, whatever, the ideas and stuff, and life knowledge, you know, the coaches usually explain. And Adam said, in a way, you're not pretty. They're kind of dumber about jujitsu, but they're way better at jujitsu. And that's also what I enjoy that regular hobbyists, you don't have to know. You know, the football coach, you don't have to teach the kids why you do things. They run the game, you run the kitchen side, we call it, you know. And you don't have to know about coaching and all the details and why and then life knowledge. As a coach, you guide people, you know. So I feel it's it's not like a bad thing to say dumber, but they're they're the participants, they're doing the art. They don't have to know why and affordances and like, you know, people say, like, we don't talk science in a class, you know? And uh they're just enjoying activity and they don't have to do a deep dive. And then somebody says, but how do you make them coach in the future? They shouldn't. It's not like you get a purple or black belt, you should coach people. That's a totally different skill. People think it's black belt and now open a gym and I coach. You have zero skill. You got good yourself. That that doesn't that doesn't say anything about you making anybody else better. So I'm not trying to build coaches up. And if somebody wants, we offer them to do some kind of a repeat class of the week or something, you know. We we let them coach something. That's how you develop coaches. And then there's a low-risk class when they can mess up things if they want, you know. We had our like beginners course, they had a like a repeat class. If they do Monday, Wednesday, you know, and then if you miss something, you can have a repeat. We repeated everything in week 10. So if you miss a class, you came a week weekend, and then you know, you fix it. So that was coached by one coach. That was that's how we develop coaches. They teach, they have all the games and stuff, so they can do plug-in in, you know, they see what's the wording and they can practice and just be like a parrot a bit, you know, and have their own way in uh later little bit, you know? And that's how you develop coaching ability, not by like getting belts. It's not it's not correlated, you know. So you don't you don't need that. So and uh yeah, so now they can just be a participants. We don't have to bury them with all the details they enjoy it, they can do. And then our job as a coach, we have to know the sport, knowledge about everything, how to coach, how to manage. And I think it's it's the way it should be. It's like in Phil Jackson and Chicago Bulls, you know, there's like they don't have to know what what's in Phil's head, you know. Phil is a coach. You guys are like, you know, you're doing the game. So it is like I think it's awesome in that way, that they don't have to know what's in Bill's head, you know. Phil's head, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:05

So I think that's that is like more like a young sport idea that oh, you get a purple belt and then you coach also. You know that's like no, that's not actually how it works, or you know, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:16

Right. Yeah, I I really enjoy being a student. Uh like I train at Andres Brnowskis gym here in San Diego, and it's so nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:24

I met him once, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:25

Yeah, it's awesome. And he always says all he asks from us is just focus and sweat. That's it. You just show up, just focus and sweat. And literally all you gotta do is just keep in mind the task. You don't have to think about technique or other like your mind's just so clear, it's just like one thing. So it's nice to show up.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:42

Yeah, and if you if you see him next, uh say hello because he was in Latvia. I was in Estonia, so he has that Latvian name also. Yeah, but he was like country below me, so I met him in a seminar. So I I enjoyed and uh yeah, so I I met some other competitors that competed in Europeans and stuff. So I I I went to see his uh his application and stuff, and so it was it was a good time to meet like a person I follow, you know. So in real life, it's always funny, you know. Oh Andres, yeah, yeah, you're the famous person, you know. So it's like always good to see your heroes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:16

Yeah, thank you so much for for coming on the show and and sharing. I I feel like you're so earnest and and also humble in the way that you've taken this journey because you know you admit you're on the arguing with Greg and you've changed your mind so many times, and not a lot of people are so public with, hey, I changed my mind, I'm updating my opinions here. Like if if not a lot of people change their mind about things, uh it's it's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:38

Yeah. So it's not like I'm very stubborn, so you know I can keep so I I was I I'm actually very happy that retrospect and like I could do that. But I think we all of us we had something we felt with coaching, you know, and we knew some question we couldn't fabricate, you know, like or not fabricate, but let it out, like what it is. And when we saw CLA and all that, I was like, oh shit, you know, this it fits us, you know. So but I'm happy I I had the question and uh bravery to doubt things and look look for stuff and and um question certain methods, and then yeah, it's not easy to change your mind. It's this is not because I don't want to be a flip-flopper, you know, like this year this and that this year that, you know, it is a major decision for a gym. So we took literally a year, we didn't do it lightly. I was like, this is a big change, you know. Are we sure that are we, you know, you know, is there what's the what the fell is gonna happen? Is it the wrong thing? Is it right? What's the side effects? It was it was, you know, I don't know, scary, but you know, it wasn't lightly. So this this is not easy. And changing somebody's mind after 23 years, I've done 22 or something. I'm impressed by myself that I I really I was like, I was not stuck, I'm super happy, I'm not dead inside, you know. And I don't want to be like, oh, this and this, and now I'm no, no, I'm not that guy, but I I'm happy that I could make that change and I'm careful of any change in the world in that sense. And so I'm happy I did that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:06

So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:08

But yeah, thank you so much for coming on the show. Um, and uh thank you all for listening. And where where can people find you if uh they want to follow or hear more?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:17

So uh I do club tour camps. Um I I also recommend club tour camps, they're in US, also in Arizona and in uh Maine, uh Maine, Portland, not Oregon. Uh club tour camps. Uh I've done US camps like, but I don't don't they don't fit my schedule. So I do in Europe. So if anybody listening from Europe, I do enough of them. So getting contacted. Uh I do social media, Facebook, I'm pretty active in Instagram, in stories. I share everything I do. I don't mind the people contact me. If I don't answer, bug me again because sometimes there's too much messages and I forget to answer. So I don't mind if you bug me, bug me, bug me, and then I love to talk about it. Um bad thing is at the moment that the fancy BGJ, the site, is uh because of the life derail of my situation with my son, I fell off of that track. Uh it would be not wise of me to kill that project, so I'm I'm trying to get back and trying to also fit it with my current beliefs of the training and stuff. So I'm I'm not active, but I would kill myself, I don't know, or something like that if I just let it die like this. But now hardship is over, so it's time to get my shit together and be active more there. So hopefully that happens. But at the moment, yeah, like social media, Instagram, Facebook, follow me, you know, see what I do, get in contact. I'm deep in, I'm not the most educated, but I'm trying to get there. So I don't feel dumb, you know. So that's I guess my fear to talk about it and not know what I talk about. And uh YouTube, I don't have anything, so there's some fanatics DVDs are out as a material, my old stuff, you know. I'm trying to also come up with new stuff, like what also goes with my belief. So that's maybe coming in that, but yeah, more social media, so yeah. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:06

Thank you so much for.